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Post by Zach on Dec 18, 2009 17:38:35 GMT -5
Chris, you got a chance to see a bit of my Jund EDH last night... What do you think? There's a few cards I need for it yet, including Hellkite Overlord and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund... Other than that, what can you think of for some good Jund cards?
(Not only aiming this at chris, just looking for suggestions)
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Dec 18, 2009 18:01:50 GMT -5
I used to have a Kresh deck for EDH. I ended up taking it apart because there were just too many cards to choose from and it became way too difficult to decide which ones were better. I could probably come up with a list of more than 500 different cards that are good enough to be played. Even picking a general for the Jund shard is difficult at best (there's at least 6 that are good enough to be used).
Try going to the EDH forums on mtgsalvation.com, or the official Elder Dragon Highlander forums (Google it) for some ideas.
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Post by JediCheese on Dec 18, 2009 23:58:02 GMT -5
I would have to play against it again. IMHO, you got left alone for a while which let you build up. You were close to winning but I was turning it around (don't underestimate an active Rubinia Soulsinger. She does win games when I become the proud owner of the beefiest creature in play).
Things I think you were missing: Card draw, graveyard recursion, sac outlets, and token generation.
Green has a surprising amount of card draw (Harmonize/Soul's Majesty effects) and black is know for it's suicidal card draw (Phyrexian Arena). One spell per tun isn't nearly enough in EDH...
Second, Green/black have great graveyard recursion. Pay some life to get those creatures back. I didn't see you playing with the graveyard at all and that is something you need to do in EDH (or stop it as with my Ground Seal). An easy card to pick up would be Eternal Witness or Charnelhoard Wurm (even Carrion Thrash is acceptable for a start).
There are tons of sac outlets in red/black/artifact. I know that most of them are older but having a few sac outlets is really good. I think an easy one to pick up would be Ooze Garden (don't get me wrong, it's bad but I can't think of anything recently printed that wouldn't be hard to pick up).
Token generation in Green/Red? I think we can come up with something that makes tons of tokens that you can then sac off to profit (to your sac outlet) and give your general +1/+1 counters. Goblin Assault and Necrogenesis are both really good.
I don't know how deep of a card base you have and what your budget is for the deck but there is TONS of broken stuff out there in G/R/B. The thing is do you want to start down the road trying to find Sylvan Library, Squee, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle, Tarmogoyf and whatnot.
My Soulsinger deck is pretty powered (I am missing 2 dual lands, a few fetch lands, and a Moat) and I looked really long and hard at several Hanna decks to make it as broken as possible. Ditto to the Nath Deck (missing the Rav Dual, Deed, the G/B Liege and Chains Of Mephistopheles).
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 12, 2010 12:37:16 GMT -5
Zach, I've got a bit of an itch to create another Jund EDH deck. Would you mind posting your current list on here?
Also, would you be open to discussing card choices?
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Post by Zach on Feb 12, 2010 17:26:14 GMT -5
Lol, I know your thoughts on my stupid Ram-Gang... That was a filler for Garruk. And I'll post the list sometime tonight... It's a long one, as you know.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 16, 2010 9:57:52 GMT -5
The more I think about this, the more I think I would rather play Sek'Kuar than Kresh. They both have similar strategies (kill stuff and benefit from it), but it's much easier to kill one Kresh than lots of Sek'Kuar dudes.
Zach, where's that list?
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Post by JediCheese on Feb 16, 2010 10:15:26 GMT -5
Kresh gets counters regardless of whose stuff dies. Sek'Kuar only gets creatures when your creatures die. Totally different strategy. Additionally, Kresh does general damage
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Post by Zach on Feb 16, 2010 18:09:23 GMT -5
Sorry, forgot to do it Friday night, I'll get to it tonight... The standard tourney is tonight, and I've got pep band, so it wont be until aroudn 9:30-ish
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Post by Zach on Feb 17, 2010 20:29:47 GMT -5
Current Kresh EDH list. Always looking for upgrades as well, a few things I'd like to replace, I just don't have the card to replace them with at the moment. One of my biggest holes is the lack of a Hellkite Overlord =(
Minion Reflector Amulet of Vigor Darksteel Ingot Skullcage Expedition Map O-Stone Top Lotus Petal Scute Mob Primal Command Bestial Menace Plated Slagwurm Myojin of Life's Web Mycoloth Wild Pair Harmonize Civic Wayfinder Blastoderm Spearbreaker Behemoth Canopy Cover Beastmaster Ascension Krosan Grip Krosan Tusker Indirik Stomphowler kalonian Behemoth Caldera Hellion Shatterstorm Predator Dragon Siege-Gang Commander Lavaball Trap Hellkite Charger Shivan Dragon Banefire Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs (future genearl?) Where Ancients Tread Stone Idol Trap (redonk in multiplayer) Flameblast Dragon Chain Reaction Vicious Shadows Greater G-G-G-GARGADON! Beacon of Destruction Hostility Plague Wind Vampire Nighthawk Rise from the Grave Dead Reckoning Cairn Wanderer Lord of Extinction Jund Charm (Stupid Teneb) Sarkhan Vol Putrefy Blitz Hellion Terminate Broodmate Dragon Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper Madrush Cyclops Malfegor (another possible General? lawlz) Dragon Broodmother Predatory Advantage
8 Forest 6 Swamp 6 Mountain Khalni Garden Bojuka Bog (stupid Teneb!) Vivid Grove Terrain Generator... Eh Treetop Village Ancient Ziggurat Vivid Crag Rupture Spre Poluted Mire Exotic Orchard Mosswort Bridge Golgari Rot Farm Raging Ravine Ghost Quarter Akoum Refuge Svagthos, the Restless Tomb Kazandu Refuge Reliquary Tower Tectonic Edge Dread Statuary
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 18, 2010 11:41:27 GMT -5
Before I give you my opinions, do you have any specific goals, themes, or strategies in mind when you play this deck? I am seeing a bit of a Jund Dragon theme, which makes me think that Karrthus would be a better general for you. If that is the case, then you can certainly focus on that, but I would do a Gatherer search for the word "Dragon" in the Jund colors and see what you come up with. In general, I try to get as much synergy and card advantage as possible from every card in the list. If Card A is only good when you have Card B, then Card A is probably not worth it, unless Card B is your general or you have insane tutoring. You have a 99-card deck, so the odds of you getting two specific cards are not very good. As for specific card changes, that would depend on your general, which would in turn depend on which theme you are going for. If you are going for Jund dragons, then switch to Karrthus and make the following changes: - Cuts: Blastoderm: Too slow, no evasion, not a Dragon. Blitz Hellion: Too random, not a Dragon. Hostility: He's better in a Kresh deck with more direct damage. Indrik Stomphowler: Since you play dragons, you don't need the 4/4 body, so you can find cheaper and better ways to Naturalize. Kalonian Behemoth: Cute, but it doesn't fit your theme, regardless of who your general is. Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs: He's probably good in Kresh, but not here. Lord of Extinction: You will have lots of big bodies, so non-dragons are less good. Madrush Cyclops: too easy to kill it and thus remove the haste ability. Anger is much better. Mycoloth: Tokens are not your thing. Plated Slagwurm: not a dragon. Scute Mob: try Dragonmaster Outcast or whatever from Worldwake. Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper: belongs in Kresh. Siege-Gang Commander: belongs in Kresh. Vampire Nighthawk: too small for EDH. Skullcage: I assume this should be SkullCLAMP, but regardless it is not needed in Dragon Tribal. Lotus Petal: this is WEAK SHIT in EDH. Unless you have some sick artifact recursion, this should NEVER be used in EDH. Wild Pair: not sure if this will benefit you or not. Lurking Predators is probably better. Beastmaster Ascension: better in Kresh. Canopy Cover: auras BLOW in EDH, unless you are playing Uril or Chris's enchantment deck. Predatory Advantage: see Canopy Cover. Bestial Menace: kinda meh when you can play dragons. Stone Idol Trap: kinda meh when you can play dragons. Shatterstorm: it's a one-shot deal, something re-usable would be better. I'll post some Kresh-like suggestions later today. EDIT: A couple of links to Karrthus lists online: - forum.dragonhighlander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3058- forum.dragonhighlander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1781- forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=194327
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 18, 2010 14:17:50 GMT -5
OK, now for some Kresh suggestions:
In general, you want to load up on guys with graveyard triggers and sac outlets. Tokens are always good because they can be produced in large quantities, sacrificed without much penalty, and Crusade-effects become better.
With most of my EDH decks, I always try to favor something that is permanent or re-usable over something that only works once. This is something that a lot of EDH players don't understand, because it's often not the case in other formats. For example, in most cases Negate is just better than Glen Elendra Archmage or Venser because of the reduced cost. However, in EDH Venser and GEA are amazing, while Negate is pretty awful.
Some of my favorite sac-outlets: - Perilous Forays - Carnage Altar - Phyrexian Altar - Ashnod's Altar - Altar of Dementia (see the pattern here?) - Helm of Possession - Miren, the Moaning Well - Bloodshot Cyclops - Tortured Existence - Hell's Caretaker - Doomed Necromancer - Apprentice Necromancer
Some of the better graveyard triggers: - Grave Pact. This is practically required for a Kresh deck. I don't see how you could go without it. - Savra, Queen of the Golgari. See Grave Pact. - Anything with Persist. - Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper - Homura, Human Ascendant - Anything with echo - Anything with evoke - Anything with devour - Anything with high power and low toughness that still does something besides fuel Kresh (Ball Lightning is bad, Flametongue Kavu is excellent). - Anything that rhymes with "Thrinax".
Other randomly awesome spells for Kresh: - Makeshift Mannequin - Doubling Season - Earthquake effects - Pestilence effects (Thrashing Wumpus, Pestilence, the Time-shifted red Pestilence, etc) - Kiki-Jiki (his copies get sacrificed to Kresh) - Gruul War Plow, Brawn, other global trample effects to make Kresh lethal. - Flowstone Slide. Look it up...it's perfect for Kresh.
Cuts: - Blastoderm: Too slow, not worth the price, not very good without your general. - Blitz Hellion: Doesn't hit the graveyard, so it's no good for Kresh. - Cairn Wanderer: cute card, doesn't fit your theme. - Flameblast Dragon: belongs in Dragon Tribal. Too big and slow for Kresh. - Helllkite Charger: belongs in Dragon Tribal. - Indrik Stomphowler: this card stopped being good when they printed Acidic Slime. - Kalonian Behemoth: too big and slow. - Lord of Extinction: not sure how I feel about him. I think I'd have to try it and see if it's any good. - Madrush Cyclops: Anger is better. - Myojin of Life's Web: cute, but probably slow. - Plated Slagwurm: see Myojin. - Scute Mob: way too slow to be effective, even with a Doubling Season. - Shivan Dragon: see Myojin. - Vampire Nighthawk: kinda meh in a format where it's all about style points. - Amulet of Vigor: only good if you run a lot of CIPT lands, which will in turn slow your deck down (and you won't always have the Amulet to break them). Not worth it. - Expedition Map: this is for non-green players who don't have access to REAL ramp spells like STEve, Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Elder, or Yavimaya Granger. - Lotus Petal: this is an awful card for EDH. Play a basic land before you play this card. Just awful. - Wild Pair: this is situational. If you have a lot of guys with similar P/T, then go for it, but otherwise you're better off with Lurking Predators. - Canopy Cover: remember your ABCS: AURAS. BLOW. CHUNKS. - Predatory Advantage: see AURAS. - Where Ancients Tread: this belongs in Karrthus or Mayael. - Bestial Menace: kinda meh. - Banefire: kinda meh. If you wanna kill a creature, run Shriekmaw or Spitebellows. - Beacon of Destruction: TURRRRRIBLE. 5 mana for 5 damage? GTFO. - Jund Charm: the anti-graveyard mode is the only relevant one, and there are better ways to do that (Necrogenesis and Night Soil in particular). - Plague Wind: I'd have to play with this one to see if I could reliably cast it. - Rise from the Grave: you don't care about the Zombie effect, so Beacon of Unrest is infinitely better. - Stone Idol Trap: this is just Ball Lightning with a ghetto booty. Not worth it. - Shatterstorm: if you really have trouble with artifacts, maybe. Keldon Vandals, Ingot Chewer, Vithian Renegades, Shattering Pulse, Putrefy, and Artifact Mutation are all better. If you want mass removal, I'd go with Disk effects. Then again, if you really have problems with a LARGE number of artifacts, maybe keep this one.
I'll post a Kresh list of my own later.
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Post by Zach on Feb 18, 2010 17:37:10 GMT -5
Well, the deck's theme is really just "Go big, or go home". I don't have the budget to put into stuff like Phyrexian Arena or anything like it because I've got upwards of 200 $ invested in my current type 2 deck. That price may go up another 120 if I can get ahold of a few Baneslayer Angels. It's just a timmy casual deck that I threw together so that I could play on thursdays. Besides... Stone Idol Trap and Bestial Menace both practically say "Put 6 +1/+1 counters on target Kresh"
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 18, 2010 17:43:44 GMT -5
Only 6? That's not even enough to kill someone in two swings! What happens when your Kresh and your Bestial get Wrath'd or Disk'd?
I'll try to post a list of budget cards to go for later.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 18, 2010 18:06:02 GMT -5
Budget Kresh ideas (none of these cost more than $1): - Acidic Slime - Anger - Apprentice Necromancer - Ashenmoor Liege - Bloodshot Cyclops - Brawn - Butcher of Malakir - Charnelhoard Wurm - Creakwood Liege - Deathbringer Thoctar - Doomed Necromancer - Dragon Broodmother - Dread - Farhaven Elf - Filth - Flametongue Kavu - Fleshbag Marauder - Hell's Caretaker - Homura, Human Ascendant - Ingot Chewer - Keldon Vandals - Mycoloth - Puppeteer Clique - Rakka Mar - Sakura-Tribe Elder - Savra, Queen of the Golgari - Scarland Thrinax - Shambling Shell - Shriekmaw - Spearbreaker Behemoth - Spitebellows - Sprouting Thrinax - Stalking Vengeance - Thrashing Wumpus - Vigor - Walker of the Grove - Wood Elves - Woodfall Primus - Yavimaya Elder - Yavimaya Granger
- Blood Rites - Cauldron of Souls - Golgari Germination - Golgari Signet - Grave Pact - Greater Good - Gruul Signet - Gruul War Plow - Lurking Predators - Necrogenesis - Ooze Garden - Pestilence - Rakdos Signet - Tortured Existence
- Artifact Mutation - Flowstone Slide - Hit/Run - Makeshift Mannequin
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 19, 2010 17:38:11 GMT -5
Budget land ideas for any Jund deck: - SAVAGE LANDS (how do you not have this in your list?) - Gilt-Leaf Palace - Auntie's Hovel - Llanowar Wastes - Sulfurous Springs - Karplusan Forest - Urborg Volcano - Shivan Oasis - Dragonskull Summit - Rootbound Crag (you played Jund, so you must have these) - Jund Panorama - Tainted Wood - whatever the red Tainted land is called - Ravnica bounce lands - Vivid lands
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