Welder Mud

[crazedferret]

My current list is

4 x goblin welder
4 x faithless looting
4 x metal worker
4 x lodestone golem
4 x tezzeret agent of bolas
4 x tangle wire
4 x kuldotha forgemaster
4 x mox opal
3 x lightning greaves
1 x blightsteel collossus
1 x sundering titan
1 x spine of ish
1 x phyrexian metamorph
1 x mindslaver
1 x wurmcoil engine

4 x ancient tomb
4 x great furnace
4 x vault of whispers
4 x seat of the synod
2 x phyrexia's core
1 x swamp
1 x island

Current side

2 phyrexian metamorph
2 ratchet bomb
2 powder keg
2 ensnaring bridge
3 surgical extraction
2 trinisphere
2 sphere of resistance

Thoughts on the matter...

welders, metalworkers, lodestone, tangle wire, kuldotha forgemaster, mox opal, greaves, blightsteel, sundering titan, wurmcoil and the mindslaver were all good calls. All saw play the other day and all of them were highly valuable.

tezzeret is also great but mana is a little shakey at times trying to get both black and blue right away. I don't really want to cut anything out of the deck to play black/blue mana rocks, so I'd rather work for it a bit with mox opals and faithless lootings. It's also probably the last thing I want to play out of my hand so that I can refuel and go for the kill after exhausting all other options. So I probably have maybe 4-6 turns or so to come up with the mana for him.

faithless looting helps tezzeret out quite a bit but can be a bit mediocre at times too. Acting as more of a filter of cards and a discard outlet for welder. I might try top in this spot and see how that works out. In which case I'd probably switch to a full set of phyrexia's core although it hasn't been that much of a problem getting artifacts in the grave as my opponnent usually puts one or two in there through countermagic, discard or removal. This would also increase the total artifact count in the deck which is important for tezzeret, but also a little more subtly it is a cheap artifact that helps turn on metal craft on mox opals as well as something not so important to the early game that I can tap to tangle wire (but can still be used for the card filtering too).

Spine of ish never really got used more than once in any game and it was usually to hit a land with it. If I did not get hit by grave hate main in the form of deathrite shaman and rest in peace (helm combo) I might have used it a time or two more.
As such though it should probably just be in the side. I still think it warrants a spot as a vindicate seems useful still especially when I found out how hard a humility rocked my deck. My team became useless and I was spending way too much mana to play 1/1's that do nothing.

Phyrexian metamorph was good when copying tangle wire. It never really got much of a chance to copy anything else and it's not really something I'd particularly want to search up. Out of the board it was great en masse. The last game I played the other night I was able to stall the game early with a tangle wire, which allowed me to get to six mana with which I played both phyrexian metamorph as a tangle wire and a metalworker thus locking the opponnent out of their next turn as they had to tap five which gave me a huge mana advantage.

Island and swamp are in there in case someone is playing path to exile (which some still do). I figure that with tezzeret being in there I want to be able to get these basic lands instead of a mountain as that is the harder combination of colors to get to. Although I blew up my swamp already once with a sundering titan.

Side board
I had no real idea what to side board when why and where. I played against blue white control and just got rocked by free counterspells - force of wills all over the place. Wasn't sure what if anything to bring in. I kind of wanted something like summoning trap to respond to them countering an early metalworker or forgemaster, but I don't really have a good way of playing them aside from tricks with mox opal or for free (which may not matter if I'm playing need to counter threats). I thought about putting in sphere and trinisphere and maybe that would be right, but it really didn't feel right at the time.

I played against high tide/storm as well and over boarded. I brought in all my spheres, surgicals, and metamorphs - everything that I thought would slow him down and make it difficult to combo out which worked out, but there was a time I could of won with a blightsteel had I not sided him out. That resulted in me forgemastering into lodestone which worked out in the end but I could have killed him a turn or two earlier.

I sided in one bridge during a BUG match just in case. They are mainly for big dude reanimator and show tell kind of decks but she was playing some rather big dudes too. Metmorph became a tarmigoyf which was rather amusing to me.

ratchet bombs and powder kegs are for elves and goblins and the like that throws large quantities of cheap or free dudes at you. I split them because I have them both is all, figured it'd be better protection against something like cranial extraction.

Mindslaver was actually quite good. Every time I got to use it, I nerfed everyone's carefully crafted decks. The efficiency of legacy decks makes it so that I can play out just about all of their hand just by taking one turn.

Surgical might be better as tormod's crypt, but I like the ability to surprise it out there and remove all copies of a critical card. I haven't played against a deck yet that totally abuses the yard though. I might change at least one of them to a tormod's crypt to at least be able to search it up via forgemaster if necessary.

I might change the spheres to summoning trap for a week to see how that works out as both of those have a tendency to get in my way as well as theirs although I can see how well and easily those could work out in my favor verse certain matchups.

Other thoughts that I had were batterskull, nullstone gargoyle, chalice of the void, and simply more wurmcoil engine (of which i have none of these and only one wurmcoil)

[Travis Lannoye]

Great to see that you finally got to play this deck, and just in time for SCG Milwaukee...

I can say from overall experience in the format that Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives should help you a lot. Most Legacy decks have a lot of one and two-drops, and a turn one play of Ancient Tomb > Chalice of the Void would really hose a lot of people. Explosives are versatile removal that you can do a lot with as well. Also, I have a full set of both of these if you ever want to use them.

@your manabase: you might try something like Gemstone Mine or City of Brass. With three colors plus Ancient Tombs, you don't really have room for Revised duals or fetches. Also, do you think you would need Wastelands?

More Wurmcoil Engines are never a bad idea...they are solid beaters that can end games quickly. I also have plenty of these if you want them. Have you considered Solemn Simulacrums?

[crazedferret]

Engineered explosives will never be set at more than two and most often only at one in this deck (which is probably all it needs). I'd be really lucky if it could hit anything else with it. As such I think I'm better off with ratchet bomb and powder keg as they can hit all the same targets (equally as quickily for 0 drops and 1 drops on the first two turns) and then some higher drops if I work up the counters.

Chalice is cumbersome for me for a good number of reasons. Set at zero really hampers the mox opal plan (as does both spheres in my board for that matter). Set at 1 shuts down goblin welder/faithless looting plan. I'm more concerned by welder being shut down than faithless as that card really does shine and is really dangerous. For instance I got thought seized turn one and the choice was between forgemaster or welder. Choosing forgemaster is a mistake as I play welder next and get something from forgemaster out really quick anyways. Choosing welder stinks too as I play forgemaster next and go for the kill. Set at two I lose cheety boots, set at three I lose metal worker and tangle wire.
On the plus side though it'd probably hamper the opponnent more but I'm not thoroughly convinced. It'd be something to try out.

I would dread playing city of brass alongside ancient tomb. I would for sure want to play more wurmcoil engines alongside that. Might be worth the shot though, although it hurts you to tap it which would run contradictory to the tanglewire plan. Gemstone mine or something else along that lines might be good too, but I don't know all my options yet. The swamp and island as well as the phyrexia's core could easily be something else. It was not so important to have the core's and I don't think it was hugely helpful to fetch a swamp or island off of a path to exile.

I don't plan on running wastelands as I'd need the other part of the formula as well--> crucible. I have two wastelands and no crucibles. Plus from what I've seen there are a number of players running main deck deathrite shaman and I likely would end up accelerating them instead of truly wastelanding them. I tried this in a previous version and it more often than not left me in worse condition without the crucible.

I could easily see another wurmcoil engine or two in there and I heard that batterskull would be good against miracles (survives a terminus) which I haven't played against yet.

Solemn just doesn't do enough when I can play something like lodestone golem instead and start making it difficult for them to do anything. I also am not running basics enough nor will I run enough basics to care about the land. If I wanted to get card advantage I think I'd want to consider more baleful strix but that pushes me farther into black/blue. I'm not opposed to this but that would mean I'd need to be able to more consistently hit those colors.

Glimmervoid seems good. There was rarely a time I did not have an artifact in play. Mirrodin's core, although I don't like the one turn set up. Tendo ice bridge, only a one time use though (all I need?). Undiscovered paradise would be reasonably tolerable I think but would need testing, could be alright with faithless looting as well to throw a card back into my hand. Gemstone is probably decent as well, (3 times use enough?)

[Travis Lannoye]

If it would help, I could put a Miracles list together and test against you. I have all the stuff, and I'd consider playing it.

[crazedferret]

You know that actually would help. If that is the go to control deck then I'm sure it needs to be figured out.

[abeckett]

City of Brass would be too painful combined with Tomb. I fully agree there. I think your best best would be Gemstone Mine. It dies eventually, but I don't know if it will matter much. Another option would be to look into shocklands, since duals are obviously too expensive. Steam Vents are already kind of cheap with the RTR reprint. Watery Grave is likely to follow when GC hits.

Also, Mindslaver in eternal formats is insane. I loved it in Vintage because it pretty much came close to winning the game every time it got fired off.

If Faithless Looting is not cutting it for you, have you considered trying Thirst for Knowledge? It might require tweaking the mana base a bit more towards blue over red, but it's better at card draw instead of just filtering.

[John Galli]

I echo Travis's comments regarding engineered explosives. That card is just better and faster than the current options you have and a backbreaker to the decks it's good against. Chalice isn't great for you like you mentioned but I'd be prepared to play against it because people do run it.

I was surprised to hear the other day that the deck doesn't play fabricate. You have so many artifacts it seems like having a tutor would be nice, albeit its a slower one. I could see Andrew's thirst for knowledge being pretty good. Its too bad you can't access more blue for something like the kamigawa card that lets you draw 3 and then discard 3 at end step. Another filter card that could be interesting would be soothsaying. Also don't forget about careful study

The list seems to have a lot of 4 ofs when I think maybe you could knock some numbers down. You said yourself that Tezz was hard to cast and not needed right away so I'd start there. Just a quick glance at the manabase and I saw that issue immediately. Maybe cut him down to 2 or something. Travis's idea if gemstone mine could work. I'd get rid of the basics in favor of the artifact lands as playing them just to be able to dig them up if you get pathed is a lot more narrow of a reason then the amount of harm they can cause.

If you decide to play phyrexia's core (a card I always liked) have you thought about either of the wellsprings? With welder, core, and just on their own they could help fix your draws and mana. Legacy can be a faster format so I don't know but I often find it to be a little more exaggerated than it really is.

The graveyard hate discussion intrigued me. Deathrite is quickly becoming a popular 4-of in legacy and that card hurts your deck bad. That would probably be my initial focus. I'd also play tormod's over surgical so that you aren't reducing your artifact after sideboard and so you can trigger opal's easier.

I liked your idea of playing sensei's top, in fact maybe that's just miles better than most tutor or draw (except unlike looting or thirst it doesn't pitch to the grave)

Don't forget in black you still have access to engineered plague which has a lot more targets in legacy than most formats. Calling something like wizard or human against delver style decks can actually be hilarious. When they can't cast their snapcasters your opponent will often look dumbfounded. Its also something your opponents board plan might not be able to handle, for instance vs goblins where they have lots of artifact hate but nothing against enchantments.

Force of will does seem annoying for this deck, I don't really know what you could do against it. Maybe red elemental blast or pyroblast. Albeit neither are free to play but I dono. Misdirection? (Can't remember the alternate cost). Bait them out with a mindbreak trap. Honestly these are all quick thoughts and probably bad ones, FOW always needs consideration time

[abeckett]

REB and Pyroblast would indeed be great options against counter heavy decks and anything with a lot of blue in it in general. It serves a dual role as spot removal against stuff like merfolk and a lot of the BUG decks out there that have dropped goyf.

The more I think about it, looting just seems better than TFK in this style of deck. You want to reduce the number of non-artifact high cmc spells, and it might be a little too expensive for a one-shot effect.

[crazedferret]

What decks would engineered explosives be for? So that I can test verse those decks and figure out if I'd rather have those over powder keg/ratchet bomb.

Although the deck doesn't play fabricate, it does have a tutor. Forgemaster is more akin to tinker though and puts it directly in play. The initial deck I saw played gamble which is a tutor with a random discard.

I'm thinking gemstone mine right now although I may change my mind to something like undiscovered paradise or glimmervoid if testing does not pan out. Glimmervoid would suffer from wasteland and undiscovered paradise lifts after use limiting how many lands I'd have on board (Which is usually around 3-4 at the end of the game anyways so it might not be a big deal).

Tezzeret is a real easy win condition. I'd rather make it easier to cast him than to cut him. He himself draws me cards which can fix my mana with all of the artifact lands I'm playing and give me gas. He'll provide some bodies in a pinch and his ultimate is just so ridiculously easy to get to. One turn with him on the board is all it takes to kill with the ultimate.

The value of phyrexia's core is in dumping a card about to be destroyed or exiled into the graveyard for recursion later. Wellsprings just aren't a 'you must destroy me threat or I win' kind of card. I don't believe they would do enough.

The problem with deathrite is that when they destroy one of my creature artifacts, I can't recur it later. That is annoying for the welder plan but not the biggest deal as there are so many other threats to play out and an active welder can still be useful. Rest in peace is more of a problem as it completely invalidates welder.

I need to try verse the dredge decks any how so that may be the deciding factor on the crypt/surgical debate. I like both but I'm not convinced they should all be one or the other.

Like I pointed out earlier most of the time I'll have an artifact or two put into the grave via removal/disruption/counters that I'm not sure faithless looting is 100% necessary to activating welder, although it does help to get him active on turn two. I'd still like to try the top plan or perhaps a 2-2 split.

Engineered plague is a good thought. I have them too. I'll keep that one in mind next time I play legacy and see what decks it would shut down. It may warrant further testing.

Currently I'm thinking summoning trap verse force of will, but I need to make sure I can be able to cast them normally as well otherwise what's the point? I show them that card once and they are going to be wary of it the rest of the game and that means possibly dead cards in hand for me.

So this is what I'd like to try next week.

4 x goblin welder
4 x sensei's divining top
4 x metal worker
4 x lodestone golem
4 x tezzeret agent of bolas
4 x tangle wire
4 x kuldotha forgemaster
4 x mox opal
3 x lightning greaves
1 x blightsteel collossus
1 x sundering titan
1 x spine of ish
1 x mindslaver
2 x wurmcoil engine

4 x ancient tomb
4 x great furnace
4 x vault of whispers
4 x seat of the synod
4 x gemstone mine

side

2 phyrexian metamorph
2 ratchet bomb
2 powder keg
2 ensnaring bridge
2 surgical extraction
1 tormod's crypt
4 summoning trap

[Travis Lannoye]

Would you play more Wurmcoils if you had access to them? I could loan/trade them to you.

[John Galli]

This list went 4-0 in a daily recently-

Main Deck
60 cards

4  Ancient Tomb
3  Cavern of Souls
4  City of Traitors
3  Darksteel Citadel
3  Great Furnace
4  Wasteland
21 lands

1  Blightsteel Colossus
1  Duplicant
4  Goblin Welder
4  Kuldotha Forgemaster
4  Lodestone Golem
4  Metalworker
1  Platinum Angel
1  Sundering Titan
1  Wurmcoil Engine
21 creatures

4  Chalice of the Void
1  Crucible of Worlds
4  Grim Monolith
1  Karn Liberated
4  Lightning Greaves
1  Mox Opal
1  Spine of Ish Sah
1  Staff of Domination
1  Staff of Nin
18 other spells

Sideboard
1  Duplicant
3  Ensnaring Bridge
1  Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1  Phyrexian Metamorph
1  Silent Arbiter
1  Surgical Extraction
3  Tormod's Crypt
3  Trinisphere
1  Wurmcoil Engine
15 sideboard cards

[crazedferret]

I'd play probably at least one more wurmcoil in the main.

Good to know the deck can 4-0.

This list seems to have more "cute" things going on in it. Staff of domination without an active metalworker and cards in hand is pointless. It's a bad card without metalworker and if you have an active metalworker you are already winning the game. It's win more.

Cavern seems to be only for goblin welder. I don't see what else to call with it.

Lot's of one ofs that may not all be necessary.

But it's food for thought.

[Travis Lannoye]

Agreed...there are a lot of one-of's in that list that seem kinda weak.

I think if you streamline it a little more and include a full set of Welders, Monoliths, Metalworkers, Lodestone Golems, Forgemasters, and Wurmcoil Engines, you will be much more consistant.

How are the four legendary Mox Opals working for you? I would think that one or two might get stuck in your hand, like Thalia does in Maverick.

[Travis Lannoye]

Thought I'd share this list that took 9th place in a recent Legacy Open: sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52092

No Welders, but it looks pretty consistent. You could probably squeeze them in for the stuff you don't have.

[crazedferret]

Mox opal is surprisingly good for the deck. It activates turn 2 (artifact land, artifact land and mox opal) allowing me 3 mana if I don't have ancient tomb on hand. I did have one game that I ran into three of them. That was a little annoying but not as much of a problem as one might think. I could always pitch one to faithless looting making welder effectively tap for any color. Or I could tap one play a second to legend rule them and then play the third which I heavily considered in that match but decided it'd be better to pitch to faithless. You could also sac it easily to forgemaster and play a second. It's a free artifact to tap to tangle wire too.

More often than not though I ran into 1 to 2 of them and was able to rid myself of the extra for profit.

The four of mox was how I could play tezzeret reasonably well. I think running the gemstone mine in addition will just about assure me of being able to play tezz on time. I could see possibly going to three then if it works out right.

That other list is interesting. It drops the welder for trinispheres and chalice. Anything that trinisphere or chalice hits, is dropped down on the board ahead of time. So those cards aren't really an issue to the rest of the deck.

I do want to say though that I like my list so far and am not looking to do drastic changes to it until I've had more of a chance to playtest and figure out what exactly needs changing. I do appreciate the info though and will certainly compare and contrast for the best ideas.