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Post by abeckett on Oct 3, 2013 15:33:21 GMT -5
I almost never get a chance to play standard, but on the odd chances I have the time I never have actual cards to put a deck together. I've been considering some budget choices and wanted to try something along the lines of the previous Izzet Blitz deck
Creatures - 16 4x Young Pyromancer 4x Chandra's Phoenix 4x Guttersnipe 4x Spellheart Chimera
Instants – 20 4x Shock / Spark Jolt 4x Izzet Charm 4x Lightning Strike 4x Magma Jet 4x Turn // Burn or Voyage's End
Sorcery - 4 4x Mizzium Mortars
20 land
Between draw and scry cards, I figure 20 land should be enough for a low curve. I opted for spellheart over Nivix Cyclops since it has evasion built in, and the cards like Artful Dodge were what actually made NC work better. There's not a comparable instant in this version of standard.
Obviously, there are money cards I could add to improve this. I really want to avoid it though. Board options would probably include Annul, Negate, extra burn I don't run main, Skullcrack, and probably a few speed bumps against aggro decks.
John - this would pretty much play like a red deck with a blue splash, so I'm interested to get your thoughts.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 3, 2013 16:36:57 GMT -5
Well I think at the current moment, the format is doing a few notable things-
- Control is casting cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Elspeth, Aetherling, and Obzedat to pull the game away. So your deck either needs to get online before this happens, fight a counter war to prevent it from happening, or do it yourself.
- Aggro is looking to get online before this event happens.
- Midrange is looking to play more powerful creatures that demand answers prior to these big events in Control happening , and against Aggro they are looking to play enough removal to handle the first few turns or similar lifegain threats to control (obzedat) to counteract the aggro rush.
So if you're building on a budget, that's fine, as long as you address the above.
What I see from your list is a clock that's a little slow. You're not just going to be able to burn them out in that list alongside of some annoying creatures. The curve is also a bit strange, as 12 of your creatures share the same mana cost. I'd do one or multiple of the following corrections-
- Add in some one and two drops besides what you have. Stuff like Rakdos Cackler, Firedrinker Satyr, or Judge's Familiar.
- Add in countermagic. If you can't race the Control decks, then have something to beat their best card while you tempo them out. Syncopate, Dissolve, and Counterflux are your best options, with Gainsay being a quality board card.
- Cancel their lifegain. Make sure Skullcrack is in your sideboard, or a card that punishes them further like Burning Earth (since it really doesn't hurt you), or in the case of UW Control you could pickup some Hammer of Purphoros while they're still cheap (although the haste ability is fairly irrelevant in your deck).
- I think there is too much burn in the maindeck despite the theme, and I think some of it I'd want to be Flames of the Firebrand. Flames is very good against Aggro right now, not just Mono Red but the White Weenie deck too. I really like Mizzium Mortars in the format, but it's mostly dead against today's iterrations of Control and it's definitely not a x4 of in the main. This is a strong and needed board card for midrange, but not maindeck, or no more than x2.
- Guttersnipe has never impressed me. He's cool, but he's cute. He'll almost always see removal, he's an overcosted body, and 2 damage isn't much in the grand scheme of things. Nivix Cyclops is hard to kill with burn and certain removal spells (abrupt decay and ultimate price come to mind), so I think that's a strong reason he saw more play. The rotation did have you lose Artful Dodge though which was a key piece to decks like that. Frostburn Weird has become a serious player in the new meta, he's a card that could easily slide into your deck as he's great both on offense and defense.
- Planeswalkers are super popular right now, partially because it's a new format with a very limited amount of sets. Pithing Needle is $0.50 and is probably one of the best sideboard cards I've used. And I'm a big hater on the card, but I think right now it's some good stuff.
- Another theme to consider could be Blue Devotion. If you plunked down for a few Thassa's, the rest of the stuff isn't that much. Cards like Master of Waves ($4), Claustrophobia, Essence Scatter, Disperse. If not, the rest of the cards I mentioned above in my advice aren't expensive at all and shouldn't be a problem including.
- Patrick Chapin posted a list recently, might get some ideas from that-
R/U Chimera Patrick Chapin 0th Place at Test deck on 10/6/2013 Standard Creatures (8)
4 Spellheart Chimera 4 Young Pyromancer
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Lands (24)
7 Island 6 Mountain 4 Izzet Guildgate 3 Mutavault 4 Steam Vents
Spells (27)
4 Dissolve 3 Magma Jet 4 Quicken 2 Shock 4 Steam Augury 2 Syncopate 1 Hammer of Purphoros 3 Anger of the Gods 4 Mizzium Mortars
His comments-
"Young Pyromancer and Spellheart Chimera each pay us for playing a lot of spells, and the rest of the deck is just about all spells!
Rather than actually trying to take over a game, this list tries to gain a board advantage and win before the opponent can do their thing. If the metagame were full of decks with no removal, something like this could shine. However, my suspicion is that in the next few weeks removal will be pretty good.
This deck makes particularly good use of Steam Augury since raw quantity of spells is the important thing, plus we get paid from dumping cards into our graveyard.
Hammer of Purphoros? You know what Spellheart Chimera really wants? Haste! It's also a good backup kill condition and a way to alleviate flood later.
This deck's biggest weakness? Creatures that are not easily burnt can be a real problem. Could Claustrophobia really be the answer? I don't know. It's pretty sketchy. Maybe Turn // Burn is better . . . "
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Post by JediCheese on Oct 3, 2013 17:45:08 GMT -5
I like Chapins list with a few modifications. I'm actually planning on running this deck if I can't get my B/x deck figured out. Steam Augury needs to be in the deck. It does exactly what you want to do mid game. Also, Goblin Electromancer is a necessary card. The deck sometimes gets two out and you go off as if it's storm. Anger of the Gods hits your stuff, but you can time it so it doesn't hurt you and destroys your opponents position. Also with Quicken, you can have a potential wrath of god on their turn vs aggro
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Post by abeckett on Oct 3, 2013 18:56:34 GMT -5
Thanks John. I have paid pretty much 0 attention to standard for awhile, so I realize I probably need to examine the meta a little before I actually put a deck together.
I like Chapin's list. Quicken seems odd, but I guess it's a cantrip at the very least.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 4, 2013 6:17:44 GMT -5
No problem, I know you don't get to play that much so definitely don't mind lending a hand I agree on Steam Augury and Anger. It's a minimal investment at the moment if you do plan to use the deck a few times and well worth it. Anger is a card no aggro deck wants to see. I disagree on electromancer for the same reasons I dislike guttersnipe. It just dies, and when it doesn't you'd get minimal value from it. I've played several archetypes against decks like this online and both snipe and electromancer are badness. Andrew, Quicken is there exclusively for more value for the two creatures. It's actually a pretty common sight online. And secondly, it lets you flash in Anger of the Gods I don't know if this archetype has legs or not but it's a fun deck from what I've seen and would be fine for Misty. Spellheart Chimera - if you can protect him or they don't have removal is almost always game over. He's been 10+ power almost everytime someone's got him out against me.
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Post by abeckett on Oct 4, 2013 8:01:32 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on Jace MA vs. Jace AOT? I know MA is probably better in control matchups, but AOT can give weenie aggro decks fits.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 4, 2013 8:21:28 GMT -5
I think it's in this list mostly as self mill for Chimera, an alternate wincon, or a draw engine. Neither Jace is stellar IMO in this deck but I don't mind the 1-of MA
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Oct 4, 2013 16:25:22 GMT -5
How much of a "budget" are you willing to go here? Ral Zarek is pretty cheap for a planeswalker. I think I even have a few copies lying around.
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Post by JediCheese on Feb 17, 2014 16:06:11 GMT -5
Has anyone seen any updated info on the deck? I'm tempted to buy the deck for Game Day in a few weeks and want to see what sort of modifications have been made to it to combat the meta.
I know it's tier 2/3, but I want to pull off some crazy stuff, not win. I'd happily settle for a few T8 finishes for some sweet promo Pain Seers.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 18, 2014 11:26:14 GMT -5
I haven't seen anyone crack the mold with a UR version, but you could probably base it off the RW burn deck which is pretty sweet. www.starcitygames.com/article/27905_RW-Burn-In-Standard.htmlThe manabase especially is great with 8 scry lands (altho no blue/red scry yet Satyr Firedrinker is definitely an upgrade for the strategy if he's not your only creature. Here's a prototype I threw together, untested though UR Chimerax3 Young Pyromancer x4 Satyr Firedancer x2 Spellheart Chimera x4 Chandra's Phoenix x3 Stormbreath Dragon x2 Shock x3 Izzet Charm x3 Turn // Burn x4 Counterflux x4 Lightning Strike x1 Steam Augury x1 Mizzium Mortars x1 Ral Zarek x1 Chandra, Pyromaster x4 Steam Vents x4 Temple of Deceit x4 Temple of Malice x6 Mountain x6 Island Sideboard x3 Far // Away x4 Skullcrack x1 Toil // Trouble x1 Rakdos's Return x2 Mizzium Mortars x1 Cyclonic Rift x1 Act of Treason x2 Slaughter Games Btw, just as an aside Chris, here's the RW Devotion list I've been doing very well with online- RW Devotionx4 Ash Zealot x4 Frostburn Weird x4 Burning-Tree Emissary x4 Boros Reckoner x4 Fanatic of Mogis x4 Stormbreath Dragon x2 Purphoros, God of the Forge x2 Hammer of Purphoros x4 Mizzium Mortars x4 Chained to the Rocks x4 Temple of Triumph x4 Temple of Silence x4 Sacred Foundry x12 Mountain Sideboard 3 Anger of the Gods 2 Celestial Flare 2 Revoke Existence 2 Glare of Heresy 2 Chandra, Pyromaster 2 Assemble the Legion 2 Last Breath
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Post by JediCheese on Feb 18, 2014 12:29:11 GMT -5
The big reason I'm not playing R/W (or RDW) is because I don't want to purchase a playset of Boros Reckoner.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 18, 2014 15:09:41 GMT -5
Well I think Standard is hostile enough right now that budget decks aren't going to get there. It's a really homogenized format, and the best decks are the best decks by a significant margin. Your shop though might be more casual IDK. Probably gonna have to spend money to play the format regardless tho. You could play G/R Aggro, lot of cheap tools there. There's a $20 event deck with a lot of goodies, just add some Fanatic of Xenagos and your mostly set- sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=461675
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Post by JediCheese on Mar 2, 2014 23:44:24 GMT -5
So, played it in two game day tournaments. The first tournament I ended up splitting 1st. The second tournament I got blown out. I only had most of the cards, and was missing some crucial Young Pyromancers and Satyr Firedancers. I also put in Guttersnipe and skipped Stormbreath Dragon. It worked ok. I think the a better creature mix is: 4x Chandra's Phoenix 4x Young Pyromancer 4x Guttersnipe 4x Satyr Firedancer 2x Spellheart Chimera There's likely an ideal mix of creatures, and it varies based on what spells you decide to run (see below). The one thing I'll mention is Spellheart Chimera isn't that great early, but he gets insane late game. I know most red mages have fallen in love with Stormbreath Dragon, but I was looking at 5CC creatures and Hypersonic Dragon may fit better in the deck (a relevant ability vs pro-white and a monstrous we'll never see). In terms of spells, I'm not sure where to take it. The deck seems to pull two directions: - You could go more draw heavy with Quicken/Steam Augury/Divination. This would definitely help the Spellheart, Pyromancer, and Guttersnipe plan because you'll constantly be cycling through your deck. With Quicken, we can more easily play Anger of the Gods and Mizzium Mortars due to instant speed shenanigans. Another option instead of Divination is Glimpse the Future, which both helps us with loading the graveyard and digging through the deck faster. IMHO, I think this is the way to go with the deck because if you want to play burn heavy, the R/W version is better.
- The other option would be more burn heavy with Magma Jet/Lightning Strike/Turn //Burn/Shock/Skullcrack main which helps Firedancer and Chandra's Phoenix. Guttersnipe is still pretty good in the burn heavy version. My only issue with this version is I think it's worse than R/W version and you are giving up the reason to play blue.
On the land front, I took your land recommendation except for the Scry lands. One addition to the land mix is the Izzet Guildgate (I realized this for the 2nd tournament and it radically fixed the mana!). I think the deck could get away with less lands, especially if you play the draw spells version. I don't like Chandra, because you aren't attacking into large creatures too often. I never really liked her, either she was win more or would ping for 1 damage and then die. I wasn't able to get any Ral Zarek and thus was unable to test him. Since we are playing Blue, I think Jace, Architect of Thought could be an interesting addition. Also, Jace Memory Adept could be interesting because you can effectively use his +1 and the +0 on yourself to put Chandra's Phoenix into your graveyard and make Spellheart Chimera larger (I played vs mill one game, a 16/3 Spellheart Chimera ended the game very quickly).. Also, I talked to another player at the tournament and he said there is a version that uses Niv Mizzet, Firedancer, and Izzet Static Caster combined with Gorgon's Head.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 3, 2014 9:29:22 GMT -5
That was a complete throw together on my part (just based off experience playing other similar archetypes) so glad to hear you did pretty well Chris with most of that 60. Never would have expected it to split first, although this format is ripe for a fresh angle. I think heavier on the spells, lighter on the creatures is for sure the route you want to go. That Staticaster/Niv/Gorgon idea sounds interesting, but it also sounds a bit cute. Those cards by themselves aren't great in this format aside from maybe Niv. I moved away from Chandra in all of my burn lists, so agreement with you there. She's a fantastic card, but much better suited in a deck that has creatures to protect her. Spellheart Chimera never fully impressed me, which is why the list I suggested didn't have many. Stormbreath is really good, and the pro white is infinitely valuable against UW Control, but five mana is a lot for this deck and like you said you can get away with playing less land if you want to. I think one thing a few guys taught me that I've been working with is that you really need just two or three lands to get going and then can scry away the rest, and to ignore opposing planeswalkers almost entirely. I've been working with a guy in Australia who's a fairly well known Red mage on MTGO and who just started writing for Channel Fireball. Myself, him, and others on his crew were brewing a RW Burn list, and this past weekend they took it to some big tournaments. At GP Melbourne, himself and three of his friends played it, and they all top 64'd (950 person tourney). Another guy working with us took it to a PTQ in Florida on Sunday and got 14th, along with two of his friends, one of which also got top 16, and the other one got top 8. The guy on Sunday played a slightly different list, but here are both of them: RW Burn -23rd at GP Melbourne James Fazzolari (Zemanjaski on MTGO)4 Ash Zealot 4 Chandra's Phoenix 2 Chained to the Rocks 4 Boros Charm 4 Lightning Strike 4 Magma Jet 4 Searing Blood 4 Shock 4 Skullcrack 3 Warleader's Helix 1 Boros Guildgate 10 Mountain 4 Mutavault 4 Sacred Foundry 4 Temple of Triumph Sideboard 2 Chained to the Rocks 4 Firedrinker Satyr 3 Satyr Firedancer 3 Spark Trooper 3 Viashino Firstblade He also did a writeup just before we ironed out the final list. It comes complete with sideboarding guide- www.channelfireball.com/articles/playing-with-fire-boros-burn-for-grand-prix-melbourne/RW Burn - 14th at PTQ Florida, Justin Alderman4 Ash Zealot 3 Satyr Firedancer 4 Chandra's Phoenix 3 Shock 4 Magma Jet 4 Lightning Strike 4 Searing Blood 4 Skullcrack 4 Boros Charm 3 Warleader's Helix 2 Boros Guildgate 9 Mountain 4 Sacred Foundry 4 Temple of Triumph 4 Mutavault Sideboard 3 Chained to the Rocks 1 Blind Obedience 4 Firedrinker Satyr 3 Spark Trooper 3 Viashino Firstblade 1 Mizzium Mortars
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Post by JediCheese on Mar 3, 2014 10:44:30 GMT -5
I played vs a few copies of the R/W deck. I felt sorry for them because I was playing a full playset of Peak Eruption in my SB. SB MVP BTW! Bad omens were foretold, Mountains blew up, creatures were unchained from rocks, shenanigans were had.
I'm curious about Ash Zealot vs Firedancer Satyr? The copies I played against had Firedancer and it murdered me by allowing them to point burn at me vs my creatures.
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