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Post by Travis Lannoye on Apr 12, 2012 10:25:53 GMT -5
Seems awfully limited...wouldn't you rather just cast Ancient Grudge or Manic Vandal or even Shatter?
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slynk
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by slynk on Apr 12, 2012 19:31:40 GMT -5
Here is what I'm planning:
3 Grim Lavamancer 2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Shrine of Burning Rage 4 Slagstorm 4 Shock 4 Galvanic Blast 4 Incinerate 4 Arc Trail 4 Brimstone Volley 4 Volt Charge 3 Faithless Looting
20 Mountains
Yes it only runs 5 creatures, here's why:
I am also of the opinion that Stromkirk Noble can't get through the myriad of one drops in the meta, and it's futile to use all your direct damage to clear the way. I have always found it simpler to direct burn the opponent. I'm even going so far as to say that Chandra's Phoenix (though considerably tough to keep dead) is not as fast as other burn cards in the format, so it too has got the axe.
I like the synergy John pointed out of Lavamancer with the fast small burn, so I've kept the 8 Shocks.
I highly value 2nd turn handling of the fast 1 drops, so Arc Trail is key as a 2 for 1 (providing card advantage - much needed in a direct burn RDW), or to ping in some damage to chip away at the opponent's life total in preparation for finishers.
The low mana curve of the deck allows Shrine's activation mana to be available the maximum amount of time.
With 8 Shocks and 4 Arc trails, there is already a lot of solutions to 2 toughness creatures, so incinerate, Volley, and Volt charge offer higher damage to face per card, solutions to 3 toughness creatures (and then some, with Lavamancer's shock). Additionally, Volt Charge's double Shrine growth is extremely handy, and Volley just hits the opponent hard when they answer your Lavamancer or one of your many single red costing burn spells answer's their pests.
As John said, Lavamancer is great to have at any point in the game, but being limited by the grave, you never need to have two out at once, so I've knocked him down to a 3 count. This may go back up to 4 if I see a heavy grave in testing.
Faithless is good to have since most often RDW likes digging into threats, when additional mountains are unnecessary, and as stated it feeds Lavamancer. But as John mentioned, you many and you're just spinning your wheels, so it's a 3 of, especially since you can flash it back without needing another color. I'd like to do some testing to see if it can even be knocked back to 2.
In games I've played at Misty, Slagstorm has proven extremely useful due to it's versatility to clear the field or be the last direct damage needed to finish the opponent.
I had forgotten about Moltensteel Dragon, but John is right, it has the potential to finish, and at 4 cost. The fact that it's flying firebreathing give it finishing power and at 4 toughness is difficult for the opp to burn. And since artifact hate was likely exhausted on your Shrines, and your previous turn's burning has left the opp at low health, the Dragon only needs to survive a turn or two.
Future cards:
4x Thunderous Wrath and 4x Vexing Devil will come in for sure. Vexing Devil is a no brainer: "You're paying? ...better than Lightning bolt" or they don't pay...and you get a 4/3 for 1 red to beat them with, or to sit as attack deterrent, or to take a titan down to shock range. I'm excited about Thunderous Wrath, but with reservation. The only time it's not extremely useful is when it's in your opening hand or your on the draw and it slaps you in the face first turn. Even so, by the time turn 6 comes, if you've been cutting away with your smaller burn, it's a Lava Axe to their face.
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Post by mastrcontrol on Apr 12, 2012 23:32:10 GMT -5
John, after talking about the hound I'm liking it more and more. Then I laid down some pros of it compared to the legionaire and came up with this:
Against pod it will kill the mana dude before trading, when interacting with a geist it will cause the geist to trigger before dealing damage.
Against tokens, they just can't block it until they have a virtue out, it does 1 to each blocker.
It is okay against delver, an unflipped delver won't block it. U/W delver will never throw haunting tokens under it.
Looking at the legionaire:
Legionaire will always stop a geist before and after undying, it will also just kill the mana dude.
Against tokens, it can take out a 2/2 token or 3 1/1's
Against delver, it will kill the delver and be able to kill geist of saint traft.
honestly, I like the legionaire more than the hound at this point. The legionaire costs 2 life and is not a red spell, however he does increase the chance of metal craft. Is this potential 3 life differential worth handling 2/2's and always stopping strangleroot? I think so. I think legionaire may be a very good 2 drop option. He may even be more reliable than stormblood beserker in a deck that runs more arc trails and relies on whiplash rather than slagstorm.
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Post by John Galli on Apr 13, 2012 8:29:31 GMT -5
Here's what I took away from last night, besides the fact that the deck needs some obvious retooling (oh and Ryan I ran our stock build last night)- Matchups-Delver - this actually didn't feel that bad. There's game here, and tweaks can improve it. I felt like I was competitive deck against them as your clock is usually faster and shrine + burn are a problem for them. R/G Aggro - Their creatures generally outclass yours, and the combination of Undying, Green Sun's Zenith, Huntsmaster, and Swords are really difficult. This matchup is going to require absolute tight play along with the correct card choices. I don't think I won a single game last night against this. R/G Pod - Pretty much the same as R/G aggro in terms of thoughts. Thalia is randomly annoying due to her first strike. Aside-I actually kind of liked my half-ass B/G Pod build. I took down a few games against Severa with R/G Aggro, mostly by going over the top of him with Massacre Wurm, but matching his undying creatures helped and Skinrender was surprisingly very powerful. He's almost Huntsmaster like, because his 3/3 body and the fact that he does -3/-3 instead of -2/-2 means he can kill most of the format. The flipped side of Huntsmaster is really only relevant for the damage he does, so Skinrender is a lot better than people give him credit for. I think either adding a color to this deck or simply strengthening the build based on last night's playtesting could make this deck a very playable option. Kessig Cagebreakers was impressive, and there are ways to improve the Delver matchup that Travis said wasn't pretty (albeit I have black with Tragic Slip + Skinrender so it didn't seem as awful to me when I played against Nick). Red Deck Wins Card Impressions That I came away with after testingHere's what I thought seemed OK last night- Grim Lavamancer - yeah he's just solid in this format, although the gas for him isn't always there. Brandon and I talked about the Ghost Quarters he's running to improve this along with faithless looting, and Ghost Quarter also helps deal with Gavony Township which I found to be one of the most annoying cards last night. I mean I've played against it before, but it usually was a critical factor in every game against Naya Pod. Koth - there was support for him by both Severa and Brandon last night and I'm thinking that I probably will try out a few again. Hell, I have the new foil versions to put in anyways and he is an element which the current decks don't seem to have direct removal for other than sideboards. With the burn packages available to RDW I found that if I had had him last night in many situations I would have been able to protect him. The spirits deck was the one matchup where I could see them poking him a bit, but the 4/4 would still be a good thing to be making every turn even if I didn't get to ultimate in that matchup. I was clearing tokens reasonably enough against Uttke's B/W Tokens and it was really Elspeth and Hero that push him over the top in that matchup, a card I'm not mad to have Koth against. I don't think Koth is great right now, but I do think he's fine as a 4 drop and Hellrider, Hero of Oxid Ridge (situational), and Moltensteel Dragon are all too limited. Hellrider just doesn't do what you want it to do since your creature count is low, he's too clunky at 4 in not giving you enough value, and Moltensteel Dragon is just too susceptible to vapor snag. It's possible Moltensteel out of the board against R/G aggro or wolf-run could provide some really interesting lines of play, but against the former it could also prove to be a very bad call since they are usually threatening you pretty good on board. That said, I had a lot of games with medium life totals for quite a few turns, and in situations like that he could be a blowout as they just simply don't have fliers and I can burn out daybreak rangers all day long. Oxid Ridge is only good against tokens, and even there an anthem makes him pointless. Corrosive Gale - didn't test it last night, but for 2-3 different matchups out there right now this card actually does feel like a one-sided blowout as opposed to Slagstorm where I'd have to adjust my deck to play "controlish". I think Corrosive Gale will definitely see a board slot. If I had that against B/W Tokens, Spirits, or Delver, I could do some serious damage. Porcelain Legionnaire - Brandon I am still reconsidering this. I think he's very relevant against the creatures of R/G Aggro and Zombies, but I have some bigtime problems with him- 1.) He's White, meaning Sword of War and Peace still runs his show all day. 2.) He has one toughness, meaning Tragic Slip (Zombies), Galvanic Blast (R/G Aggro and Pod), Brimstone Volley (R/G Aggro and Pod), and Gut Shot (Delver) all make him a miserable affair. 3.) He's life-loss in a sea of other considerable Phyrexian mana cards, playing him and then having him vapor snagged would make me cry just about everytime. That all said, "First Strike" is the relevant part, so I'm going to do some "card image gallery" searching on google and see what's out there again. I saw someone playing the 3 mana double-strike guy on MTGO the other day, although he fails the 1-toughness test too. ryan Ornstein- Ryan I think the burn to the face route is probably wrong. I thought that it was faster after the games we did, but playing against "real decks" on Thursday showed me that it just isn't happening against a matchup like Naya Pod or R/G aggro because Huntsmaster and his lifegain are a serious problem and they can race you just about as fast with Strangleroots + other nutty crap. Severa and Brandon were both pushing the necessity to burn the mana dorks and creatures early on to give yourself any kind of advantage. I'll have some new list ideas soon, just letting these brainstorms out there for now. Thanks everyone for coming to testing too, that was an awesome session (can't believe we got 15-20 people) Side NoteNew card Impressions: Thunderous Wrath - actually seemed like the better of the two, everytime I got to miracle this thing it felt awesome and looting or waiting till late game on it wasn't that bad an option. Vexing Devil - He wasn't as powerful as I hoped, but jamming him out there right away might not be the way to go about it. He's absolutely seeing play in legacy burn though.
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Post by John Galli on Apr 13, 2012 9:04:58 GMT -5
It's funny, sometimes cards just fall into your lap. I went online, did a card image gallery search for m12, and immediately found a card I want to try out- Here's a list I worked on this morning to throw out there for discussion Playtesting Revised Build 1 4 Stromkirk Noble 4 Stormblood Berserker 2 Grim Lavamancer 4 Blood Ogre 4 Shrine of Burning Rage 2 Koth of the Hammer 4 Galvanic Blast 4 Shock 3 Gut Shot 3 Arc Trail 4 Volt Charge 20 Mountain 2 Ghost Quarter Sideboard: 3 Traitorous Blood 3 Phyrexian Metamorph 2 Dismember 2 Moltensteel Dragon 2 Manic Vandal 2 Chandra�s Phoenix 1 Red Sun�s Zenith (Chandra's Outrage actually isn't looking too bad either) OR Build 2 (no koth main) 4 Stromkirk Noble 4 Stormblood Berserker 2 Grim Lavamancer 4 Blood Ogre 4 Shrine of Burning Rage 4 Galvanic Blast 4 Shock 4 Gut Shot 4 Arc Trail 4 Volt Charge 20 Mountain 2 Ghost Quarter Sideboard: 4 Chandra's Phoenix 3 Phyrexian Metamorph 2 Dismember 2 Corrosive Gale 2 Koth of the Hammer 2 Traitorous Blood (possibly trying x2 Chandra's Outrage or x1 faithless over the 4th arc trail)
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Post by mastrcontrol on Apr 13, 2012 15:08:19 GMT -5
I don't know if 4 main deck gutshots is the right call. I view them very much like arc trails, in the fact that you get very diminishing returns the longer the game goes. This is especially true in your decks that favor running 8 shocks. I like the fact that you can burn out delvers and mana dorks immediately, but you really only need 1 or 2 shocks for that early game. Running 8 shock effects will give you about 98% chance of having one in your opening hand. I think that is sufficient considering you run burn at 2 drops as well. With respect to the 2 drop burn, I would not run more than 3 main arc trail and think that incinerate is worth including in the main. There are many times you need that 3 damage against townshipped 2 butts or against 1 T guys that whose controller might be holding a mutagenic growth. Obviously the instant speed of incinerate holds much value as well, especialy when people play around a on board lavamancer only to be blown out when they find out you can actually do 3 dmg eot.
Here is the list I am running at a FNM tonight in Brookfield's games universe. Once again the meta will probably be very different from real tournament settings, as well as the competetition but it still allows me to gauge my deck's performance with itself.
4x stromkirk noble 4x grim lavamancer 4x faithless looting 4x galvanic blast 2x gutshot 4x stormblood beserker 4x shrine of burning rage 2x porcelain legionairre 2x incinerate 2x arc trail 2x chandra's phoenix 4x volt charge
2x ghost quarter 20x mountain
SB: 2x phyrexian metamorph 4x slagstorm 3x traitorous blood 2x corrosive gale 2x red sun's zenith 2x incinerate
I have dropped koths for legionairres I need more early game gas against every deck in the format. Even if he dies, I will have fuel for the lavamancer. Additionally, I am okay with the fact that he may get gut shotted or slipped. This means they probably did not deal with my T1 creature. If it is past turn 1 I will always drop legionairre first over a lavamancer so that I can clear the way for lavamancer to dominate the board.
I am running 4 blasts, 2 gut shots. I can't bring myself to play more 1 mana burn. I think this will be enough, and if I lose G1 to pod decks I will have more chances to hit my removal in G2 before their mana dorks are relevant. I think 2 gut shots is enough, they are mostly useless against tokens and non mana dorks. I only ever want one on T1.
I am now only running 2 phoenix but still 4 looting. I can't get over how many options looting provides and most of the time I never was pitching phoenix to looting anyway. I still like the 2/2 flier though as it is very good against tokens and control.
There are still volt charges and no volleys. I feel like volley matters very little in a format where mono red must play more mid range rather straight burn to the face. Usually I aim my volleys at creatures like huntsmasters and mana dorks. I can't think of anything in the format I want to do 5 damage to rather than 3. The versatility of proliferate is what gives this card the edge over brimstone imo.
With regards to the sideboard, I do not run ancient grudges or artifact hate. I should be fast enough on the play to apply pressure to my opponent and keep swords from equipping to waste a card slot and mana on a sword that they may very well have multiples of ready to equip. Mono red cannot be dedicating resources to any kind of control in the current sea of aggressive decks imo. I still have never played a corrosive gale, though I might like whipflare more in its spot now that I am including legionairres. Metamorph always comes in against delver/geist decks. Having 4 lootings alows me to get away with running only 2. Incinerate is very good right now against the non-undying creatures and many of the planeswalkers seeing play right now. They will come in for gutshots against decks gutshot is garbage against (see half the meta).
That's it, I'll have more information after I play this update, let me know what you think of the decisions.
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Post by John Galli on Apr 13, 2012 15:25:17 GMT -5
I think Gut Shot has a lot of value in being able to ensure having it in the opening few turns though. It fits a very different line of the curve, I don't consider it a 1 mana burn spell I consider it a 0 mana burn spell. It also counts as a 1 drop towards stormblood and after jamming some 100-200 games of RDW months back I can definitely say that it's very important to have an exactly correct number of one drops. Your list for instance runs x4 grim, x4 stromkirk, and x2 gutshot, which IMO 10 is usually far too few one drops for stormblood to be guaranteed activation. I'm not saying that Gut Shot doesn't have diminishing returns later in the game, but it's free mana cost also allows you to combine it with your 2 damage burn spells to "go big" if you need to. You need to have 3 damage removal in this format, but I don't think Incinerate is a must-play, or at least not as a x4 of. I think 2 damage is more relevant, with the ability to deal 3 being pertinent. Volt Charge is still there in my lists, and I could see running 1-2 incinerates. Pros always say x3 arc trail or less, yet when I went 6-2 at states I ran 4 arc trail main in a meta that had way less aggro then our current one, and it was an all-star all day. The line of play you mentioned is something that does happen but if someone's playing around your arc trail, I'll just play it into that. They're wasting valuable time they could be playing a permanent threat that this deck has issues with, so I'd gladly throw burn to bring down their card count. I think we differ on a few directions the deck needs to go, but I do think your deck has a unique perspective on lavamancer so I'll definitely have to watch some of your games at the next playtesting session to see how effective he is for you in a build with x4 faithless looting and x2 quarters. I really like Blood Ogre, I picked up a playset this afternoon and am going to test one of my lists above on Saturday if they host Standard at Misty. He's exactly what this deck needs against R/G aggro and Naya Pod. That's also another reason for the full playset of Gut Shots, to ensure both him and stormblood can get bloodthirsty. Even if Ogre isn't bloodthirsty though, a 2/2 first strike is still great to have in this deck. Good luck at Games Universe, Travis and I used to play there when we lived in Milwaukee, I remember a few people and the owner being a dick but I'm sure a lot's changed since. Usually good turn outs though and I'm curious to hear how your deck does and thoughts you get from the games. For the most part I think your list looks solid numberwise, just out of curiosity since you are running slagstorm (which I think is good), what do you usually sub out for it and how do you play your red deck differently when it's in? On another note, lesser played/known cards to keep on an outside radar (no, not saying any of these are playable or good)- Marrow Shards Viridian Claw Tormentor Exarch Mutagenic Growth Thundering Tanadon (again all of these are probably just bad, but just outside the box thinking going on here) Lastly, here's some articles/links I always keep open in a tab to glance back at and ponder over ideas- www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21312_SCG_Edison_Open_Winning_With_Mono_Red.htmlwww.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23709_No_Seriously_Play_Mono_Red.htmlwww.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/whatshappeningmtgpulse.com/events-standard
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Evan
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Apr 13, 2012 22:36:06 GMT -5
Two words: Vexing Devil
Cheers
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Post by John Galli on Apr 14, 2012 6:17:49 GMT -5
Here's the list I'm playing today and psuedo sideboard plans- 4 Goblin Fireslinger 4 Stromkirk Noble 4 Stormblood Berserker 4 Chandra's Phoenix 4 Gutshot 4 Galvanic Blast 4 Incinerate 2 Arc Trail 2 Volt Charge 4 Shrine of Burning Rage 2 Koth of the Hammer Sideboard: 4 Blood Ogre 3 Porcelain Legionnaire 3 Phyrexian Metamorph 2 Corrosive Gale 2 Dismember 1 Koth of the Hammer Matchups: Tokens: +2 gale, +2 dismember -2 koth, -2 incinerate or -4 incinerate R/G Aggro and Naya Pod: +4 Blood Ogre, +3 Porcelain Legionnaire, +1 Koth -4 Shrine, -4 Phoenix Delver: +2 Gale, +3 Metamorph -2 volt charge, -2 koth, -1 incinerate Zombies: +4 Blood Ogre, +3 legionnaire, +2 Dismember -4 Shrine, -4 Phoenix, -1 incinerate Esper Control- +1 Koth, +3 Legionnaire -2 arc trail, -2 volt charge (bring in metamorph if they bring in geist) (Alternative version could run x2 grudge in board over x1 ogre and x1 koth if sword of war and peace is an issue. x3 crag in main over mountains with that build)
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Evan
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Apr 14, 2012 17:17:38 GMT -5
Vexing Devil is the 4/3 for R in avacyn restored.
Cheers
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Post by John Galli on Apr 14, 2012 21:27:36 GMT -5
Yeah I know who he is, already brought him up in this thread and tested him on thursday so i wasn't sure what your post meant
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Post by niickopotamus on Apr 16, 2012 1:31:50 GMT -5
I'm curious would the new red planeswalker work its way into a Red Deck Wins?
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Post by John Galli on Apr 16, 2012 8:31:14 GMT -5
I could see some possible builds with him but for the most part I think he's pretty bad. Now it's very possible I could eat my words, but his abilities are just not very good and he competes with a lot of cards at the 2 drop slot.
I did some more testing of Red Deck this weekend and also worked with Ben at Misty in doing some redesigning. I definitely think I was playing the deck very poorly at Netherworld last Thursday and am looking forward to trying different approaches at the next meetup. Grim Lavamancer is so good right now, Brandon I think you were right on that one. I'm still not on the faithless looting bandwagon, but who knows what will come in time. Koth was also pretty effective as a 2 of in the deck. Here's where my list is at currently-
Next thing I'm trying is 21 lands like the Worlds build.
RDW:
4 Stromkirk Noble 3 Goblin Fireslinger 3 Grim Lavamancer 4 Stormblood Berserker 4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Koth of the Hammer 4 Shrine of Burning Rage
4 Galvanic Blast 3 Shock 4 Incinerate 2 Arc Trail 2 Volt Charge
18 Mountain 3 Rootbound Crag
Sideboard: (needs to add some cards against Frites)
4 Porcelain Legionnaire 3 Phyrexian Metamorph 2 Dismember 2 Corrosive Gale 2 Ancient Grudge 2 Red Sun's Zenith
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Post by John Galli on Apr 16, 2012 10:31:32 GMT -5
Some thoughts on the new card additions for a mono-build-
Goblins
4 Goblin Grenade 4 Vexing Devil 4 Goblin Arsonist 4 Brimstone Volley 4 Thunderous Wrath 4 Faithless Looting 4 Grim Lavamancer 4 Goblin Fireslinger 4 Goblin Wardriver 3 Goblin Chieftain
21 Mountain
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Post by mastrcontrol on Apr 17, 2012 12:51:37 GMT -5
So just to get it out there, I scrubbed terribly at games universe. I was sick, kept some bad hands on tilt, and got pummeled by zombies. On the bright side, I think games universe (the new one in brookfield) is a very positive place to play at with good players that aren't conceited.
On to my current thoughts of RDW:
stormblood beserker is just absolutely nuts against everything right now. He's stronger than strangleroots, has more evasion, and can't be touched by many of the common removal cards in the format. Also, it was a terrible mistake to not run 4x phoenix. I was almost always sad to have a gutshot instead of a phoenix, but never dissapointed in the legionairre. My opponents never wanted to trade their creatures with him. However, with the minimal testing and low frequency of drawing beserkers, I probably would have been happy dropping beserkers for 2 mana as well. That being said, gutshot may be the card that is truly needed as to enable such a powerhouse. But what to drop to make room for it?
Well, I have thought about running 21 lands. I'd like to hear how it has worked for that worlds deck John. Also, I'm not sure if 4 volt charges are needed anymore. I miss the phoenix in my list a lot for the recursion it gives me, possible blocks on saint traft, and sacrafice protection for my stronger creatures. Finally, I am considering dropping the shrines. I think the beserker and legionairre just provide so much board presence that I don't want to sacrafice tempo on turn 2 or 3 for long term plans. It sucks, because I know shrine is just a blowout sometimes but its not very consistent. By dropping it I can make room for consistent 3 power dudes on T2, it also makes running arc trails more profitable as clearing the way for creatures while getting some damage in seems better in this more creature heavy plan. I am still considering what to run for tonight's misty standard.
Finally, I'd like to mention that rdw is going to change drastically in the next release. This is not just because of the devils or wrath, but because of a sleeper card I firmly believe everyone is overlooking right now. Why is nobody freaking out over noxious revival? It can be combo'd with any miracle card, or pretty much any card for the cost of 2 life. In RDW I can turn 2 cards, 1 red mana, and 2 life into 5 damage. This is almost more efficient than 2 lightning bolts. This is certainly more efficient than shocks that pump shrines but still need 3 mana to get that charge use. I am very excited for that revival interaction, and this is only considering mono red and its 1 miracle. What about blue decks with access to more discard engines, and have the desire for a instant/sorcery on top?
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