B/W tokens for 5k

[ryanu]

So here is my tentative list for b/w tokens. Please let me know what you think.

4x doomed traveler
4x hero of the bladehold

4x intangible virtue
4x honor of the pure

4x midnight haunting
4x lingering souls
4x day of judgement

4x sorin, lord of innistrad
4x elspeth tirel

4x isolated chapel
4x vault of the archangel
5x swamp
11x plains


sideboard
3x timely reinforcements
3x oblivion ring
3x surgical extraction
3x divine offering
3x celestial purge


Not sure if im totaly set on the sideboard, it may need some help.

[John Galli]

What about maybe Timely Reinforcements, Oblivion Ring, or Gather the Townsfolk in the main over Sorin? I know you've thought about these options but I'm wondering if Sorin is worth it on top of all the other anthem effects you have. Oblivion Ring main lets you deal with any kind of problematic threat that DOJ can't deal with.

Not sure if you've seen it either but here's the list from Phoenix, I like some of it (although not the white sun's)-


3 Sword of War and Peace

Creatures
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Hero of Bladehold

Enchantments
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Oblivion Ring

Instants
2 Go for the Throat
4 Midnight Haunting
1 White Sun's Zenith

Sorceries
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls

Basic Lands
10 Plains
4 Swamp

Lands
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard:
2 Mortarpod
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Stony Silence
3 Celestial Purge
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Revoke Existence

[John Galli]

Just out of curiosity Ryan, what is your plan against Sword of War and Peace in game 1? I know R/G Aggro usually runs x4 of these and Delver can run some too.

[John Galli]

Btw, here's what the other top B/W tokens list run for sideboards, followed by an amalgamated one of yours and theirs-

Chris Basco (4th, SCG Phoenix) Sideboard:

3 Celestial Purge
3 Revoke Existence
2 Mortarpod
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Stony Silence
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Craig Wescoe (2nd, SCG Salt Lake) Sideboard:

2 Celestial Purge
3 Day of Judgment
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Angelic Destiny
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
1 Plains
1 Elspeth Tirel

One other one (can't remember where from):

4 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Day of Judgment
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Stony Silence
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Amalgamated list of yours and theirs (so to speak):

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Celestial Purge
3 Revoke Existence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements

[John Galli]

Here's the list I ran yesterday at the PTQ:

4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
3 Day of Judgment
4 Hero of Bladehold

3 Vault of the Archangel
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Corrosive Gale
2 Revoke Existence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth Tirel

Matches:

Round 1: vs. Frites; Win
Round 2: vs. G/W Tokens; Win
Round 3: vs. R/G Aggro; Win
Round 4: vs. Wolf Run Ramp; Loss
Round 5: vs. R/G Aggro; Loss
Round 6: vs. R/G Aggro; Loss
Round 7: vs. Wolf Run Ramp; Loss

Things I would change about this list for this season (before the new set):

Needed Surgical Extractions instead of the spellbombs (because of the non-bo with stony silence) but they were $8 at the shop so spellbombs sufficed. Between purge, stony silence, revoke existence, and o-ring there's too much overlap. O-Ring deserves more spots in the maindeck along with possibly tragic slip (helps with first turn dorks and inkmoth nexus which was probably the biggest issue on the day). Stony Silence was really strong, I could see that as a x3 in the board (stops ratchet bomb, swords, and pod). Revoke Existence is fairly versatile but I found myself not needing it in addition to o-ring very often (mostly it was there for wurmcoil). Day of Judgments were pretty good overall, not disappointed with them. Corrosive Gale was an unnecessary suggestion of Jasper's for the mirror, it's much better replaced here by Sorin. C.Purge is a must but it's not necessarily a 3 of, I kind of like it as a 2-of like Wescoe played it as. Champion of the Parish felt very underwhelming in the maindeck unless you got the stone nuts (him on turn 1, gather on turn 2)

Played a bunch of sidegames against delver, the matchup can go either way. If they have turn 1 delver into mana leak it's pretty rough otherwise you usually take control. Tragic Slip would help a LOT here.

The problems in the wolf run matches were multifold:

1.) The lists at this PTQ were running Glimmerpost. This was huge at gaining them the absolutely critical life swing they needed just before I could kill them on many occasions.

2.) Inkmoth Nexus is really hard to handle for this deck. Even though you have spirit blockers they are a lot of times used up blocking prime-times (and green sun's into prime times) which they use to keep fetching inkmoths until they can simply sneak one by and kessig wolf run it for a million.

3.) The lists yesterday were all playing both Slagstorm AND Whipflare. People weren't messing around lol.

4.) Regardless of all this, the matchup wasn't terrible, I was putting some serious pressure on these opponents and a few tweaks could make this swing better.

As for R/G Aggro, the deck is controllable although they are usually a slight bit faster. The biggest problems were the following:

1.) turn 1 mana dork into turn 2 sword. Sword just can't be raced, you need an o-ring

2.) turn 2 daybreak ranger or turn 3 huntsmaster is tough. You have to really have a hand with some day of judgments or o-rings to survive their initial onslaught and then you also have to get your crusades and token generators online immediately after. Both cards flip so easily in that deck and daybreak kills everything in your deck except a crusaded hero of bladehold (and even then they have galvanic blast and can flip huntsmaster for the extra damage). Your deck feels clunky in this matchup while there's feels aggressive and optimal.

3.) Earlier removal and certain board cards can improve this match, but it would require a lot of attention before jamming b/w tokens again.

Overall I was really happy playing this deck, I made a ton of play mistakes on the day and this deck was pretty forgiving by just being absolutely bonkers when you played lingering souls with crusades on the board.

Here's possibly how I'd modify it-

4 Tragic Slip
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
3 Hero of Bladehold
1 Day of Judgment

3 Vault of the Archangel
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Angelic Destiny
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Day of Judgment

[John Galli]

One card that Wescoe updated his B/W Tokens list with for the new set is Angel of Jubilation over Hero of Destiny. I think this is a great move, as I always felt hero was a turn too slow in this deck despite being a powerhouse in certain situations. I also think it's worth it to buy Angelic Destinies for the Wolf Run Matchup.

If this deck still seems optimal once the new cards hit (which I think it does because the deck essentially works in a vacuum and doesn't care about what the opponent is doing) I might end up playing it along with you Uttke at the 5k.

[John Galli]

This list won a Florida PTQ, I really like everything about it. I was thinking about Divine Offering more and more and I think I agree with you Ryan that it deserves a spot. Gaining life while destroying a sword is really critical in a lot of matches. It's not always the card you want though so I like how this guy has it split up. Obviously, with the new set we'd make our changes (Angel of Jubilation, Tragic Slip over Champion, etc). I also think I'd change his board, -2 C.Purge, +1 Sorin, +1 Surgical.

4 Isolated Chapel
14 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
24 lands

4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Hero of Bladehold
12 creatures

1 Divine Offering
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
3 Oblivion Ring
24 other spells

Sideboard
3 Celestial Purge
2 Day of Judgment
1 Divine Offering
2 Revoke Existence
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements

[John Galli]

Here's where I think the list should probably be post-avacyn restored and comments on how the cards function:

B/W Tokens 4/24/12

4 Isolated Chapel
12 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Vault of the Archangel
24 lands

4 Tragic Slip OR Champion of the Parish (test first)
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Angel of Jubilation
12 creatures

4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Oblivion Ring
24 other spells

Sideboard:
4 Angelic Destiny
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Day of Judgment
1 Revoke Existence
1 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Divine Offering

Explanations:

x4 Tragic Slip - This card seemed to work well for Uttke and I yesterday when we tested some games. It's really good at removing an early delver, mana dork, or morbiding it late game to handle a bigger threat. Turn 1 delver can be troublesome for this deck, and mana creatures are usually critical to your opponent getting an early sword of war and peace or huntsmaster. Taking away some of these options is usually better than a Champion of the Parish which doesn't do a whole lot in this deck. He's very similar to Stromkirk Noble at the moment; a strong card in a vacuum but not great in the current meta where there is just a lot of creatures on the board that outclass him most of the time. This deck usually wins by flying into your opponent with the tokens generated off of Midnight Haunting and Lingering Souls, so I'd rather have more removal so that you can setup your mid-game where the previously mentioned cards begin to take over (in combination with your turn 2 anthem plays). It also deals with Inkmoth Nexus which despite your plethora of fliers is a very real threat when Kessig Wolf Run is alongside it in the format.

x4 Doomed Traveler - While he falls under some of the criticisms that Champion does, this guy survives wrath effects and ultimately becomes the spirit token you want while at the same time providing this deck with at least a little early pressure. He was fairly decent for me at the PTQ and provides a roleplayer to the deck at this mana cost. He's not a great card in the deck but you require a one-drop creature and he's probably the best in this archetype.

x4 Angel of Jubilation - Wescoe mentioned this card as an update in his most recent tokens article, and after Uttke and I tried him the other day I think both of us were sold. He's simply what you want as a 4-drop instead of Hero most of the time. He's a turn faster when it comes to the benefits Hero provides and he flies. His secondary ability is randomly good against a lot of things in this format. You really only want Hero instead when you're playing against a control deck and possibly Wolf Run Ramp. In both situations there you want to apply as much early pressure as possible, although the protection the angel gives to your tokens to hopefully avoid a whipflare catastrophe is duly noted, and angelic destiny is coming in against wolf run so it's possible that hero is not needed there either. Against control Hero is just better because he's an army in a can against decks that like to clear the board constantly. All that said, Angel is the difference maker in a lot of the aggro matchups. Having a one turn faster 4-drop effect makes all the difference in the world. We did have him as a x3 split with x1 day of judgment, but I think for consistency purposes running x4 might just be the better option.

x4 Gather the Townsfolk - Uttke was on the planeswalker build before, but from my tournament experience I felt that Gather was necessary. It provides a heck of a lot more token generation power to this deck and it's at a spot that speeds things up which is desperately what this deck needs to do. I like Gather a lot, and I did run into situations where the triggered ability on it meant the difference between life and death in a game. If you do run Champion of the Parish, this card makes for a very powerful turn 2 play.

x4 Honor, x4 Virtue - The meat of the deck, this is what makes this thing so strong.

x4 Lingering Souls - The other meat of the deck, Lingering Souls is just so powerful right now.

x4 Midnight Haunting - This card is really interesting, it's a lot more powerful than I first gave it credit for. The ability to play your tokens at instant speed really lets you dictate the game. Most smart opponents will be aware of why you have mana open, but there's even still a lot of situations where it's just a straight surprise and BLOWS THEM OUT. The card provides a lot of flexibility to how you play the delver matchup, often allowing you to ram a lingering souls first into a mana leak and then once they've exhausted some leaks and snags you can flash in against their delvers to turn the tide of a close match.

x4 Oblivion Ring - This card is more powerful then people think right now. For this deck, it deals with some critical cards like Swords, Huntsmaster, Daybreak Ranger, Garruk Relentless, Runechanter's Pike, Liliana, Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, etc. Usually, your opponent doesn't have a lot of removal spells for it in the deck and by the time they draw one it isn't a blowout. A lot of R/G lists are not running any maindeck enchantment hate, and those that are are often leaving it up to x1 acidic slime. Your deck also has so many enchantments that when they do have to remove one they always have to ask themselves whether it's better to destroy your o-ring on their guy or one of your multiple anthems in play. Usually the anthem is the better call. So in essence, this card just takes care of most of what you need, and often it enables you to clear pesky blockers to simply bash the hell out of them with your tokens. Day of Judgment is nice in a lot of situations (against delver's hexproof guys, clogged board states, etc), but it doesn't take care of some of the problematic cards mentioned above and those tend to be what decides games for you. Thus, DOJ can remain in the board as far as I'm concerned or be a lighter split in the maindeck. I think DOJ needs to be in the 75, but it's not as good as oblivion ring.

Sideboard:

x4 Angelic Destiny: This card is really important in the Wolf Run matchup which isn't a great one for you. The only spot removal they usually have is Galvanic Blast, so if you play carefully around this (which is easy to do since they tap out often in the first 6 turns), putting this on a single token can be the difference in the game (the comeback ability of the card is just a nice bonus). Not counting anthem effects, having even a 5/5 spirit token against Wolf Run is usually unhandleable for them let alone the fact that it has first-strike. This gets around slagstorm and whipflare, which are two cards that crush you and make the deck stall just at the point you don't want it to. This applies pressure on turns 5 and 6 that can keep wolf run from getting prime time and inkmoths online. Hero of Bladehold plays a similar role to this card, but it often can die quite easily if they play correctly (flipped daybreak ranger is really problematic if they run it).

x3 Surgical Extraction: Probably the worst matchups for this deck are Frites (reanimator) and I'm guessing control (never played against it). Surgical Extraction kills the one important play frites can make rendering their deck useless. In the PTQ I couldn't afford any more of these, so I ran spellbomb, but it essentially was the same effect against frites. The guy sat there with elesh norn and wurmcoil in his yard hoping he could unburial rites but it just wasn't going to happen. Without that capability his deck did absolutely nothing. Surgical is randomly good against undying and stripping out critical cards from control decks, and it could even be a possible board card against delver to prevent some of their menacing cards from coming back again via snapcaster (or simply being drawn). The fact that it's instant speed is a big deal. Purify the Grave is a discount option if you can't get extractions. Lastly, Spellbomb is a non-bo with stony silence (even though they never come in for the same matchup most of the time so I don't see a large issue).

x2 Hero of Bladehold: I touched on his importance already, he's essentially a board card against control as he's just better than jubilation in that matchup. He also could be put in against other matchups where you need army-in-a-can type effects or more 4 drops. Most late-game matchups will want a hero.

x1 Day of Judgment: I realize x1 seems miserly, but it provides an out and acts as a 5th o-ring in a sense. There are decks where you want one against them but it isn't absolutely critical. It's possible that it should be at least a x2.

x1 Revoke Existence, x1 Divine Offering, x1 Stony Silence: These cards are all supplements to o-ring but are better in some matches than o-ring is or are just a nice supplement. In the R/G Aggro match you need some life and also need to kill swords, so offering is fine here. Stony silence is nice against ratchet bomb and sword, it's possible you want x2 or x3. Revoke existence is nice against wurmcoil and random enchantments, although it isn't any different from o-ring other than the fact that o-ring can be destroyed. Celestial Purge also is relevant as a mention here, it's possible you need them in the board for matchups like RDW and Zombies, especially if those two become popular. In the R/G matchups and Wolf Run, C.Purge is too narrow in my honest opinion.

x1 Timely Reinforcements - just an added tokenmaker against decks where you need a little more life. Could be a x2, but you really don't "need" it, you just need a slight life boost. Bringing this in along with x1 divine offering is probably enough that it makes the matchup marginally better which is basically all you are looking for.

x1 Sorin of Innistrad - this is good against the mirror match, and as such it also doubles as solid against control since planeswalkers in general are difficult to deal with. There are better planeswalkers against control, but they aren't usually as good in the mirror. Gideon is another consideration here that hasn't seen mention in tokens usually because at 5cc most people turn to elspeth tirel. I think Gideon could actually be really interesting in this deck because forcing your opponents creatures to attack him could basically act as a naya charm allowing you to swing to the fences against them with your own tokens which in a lot of situations probably just wins the game right there. Getting back to Sorin, he's another permanent anthem effect and he can generate tokens if you already have a lot of anthems on the board. He's a role player here, not a great one but a mentionable one. I wouldn't run more than x2 of him as your board doesn't have room for x3 or x4 and he doesn't provide a lot at 4 mana.

Other cards worth considering:

Increasing Devotion: This card is slow but it can be a blowout in many matches or turn the tide. The only other B/W tokens player at the PTQ I attended was running this in his board and he liked it a lot, and Craig Wescoe was talking about it in his article as well as a possible playable.

Mikeaus the Lunarch: In both limited and standard this card always struck me as "busted as hell". I don't know why people aren't running this card in more decks. I realize he takes a "turn" to get "online" but you can play him for so many different mana costs and he can improve himself on the fly. I don't know where there is room in this deck for him but he just seems so game-breaking and degenerate in the right situations. It might just be that this format is too aggressive for him or this deck is too slow for him, but I don't want to forget him in the discussion at the very least.

Champion of the Parish: Both Uttke and I really don't like this guy but I'm wondering if in certain matches you need his pressure. I feel like your control matchup in game 1 is a lot worse without him. Tragic Slip is certainly not what you want to be doing against control. That said, he was SO AWFUL at the PTQ for me usually never providing any kind of value outside of maybe 2-4 points of damage in a given game.

Geist-Honored Monk - This card is probably just a slower hero of bladehold, IDK. Still probably worth testing. I think any build with him might need to creep up to 25 lands.

Righteous Blow - Probably just better than tragic slip since almost everything you want to kill with slip can be killed by this and it's much easier on the mana.

Edit**
Revised list after looking over board in/out for popular matchups-

4 Isolated Chapel
12 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Vault of the Archangel
24 lands

4 Tragic Slip
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Angel of Jubilation
12 creatures

4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Oblivion Ring
24 other spells

Sideboard:
4 Angelic Destiny
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Day of Judgment
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements

[ryanu]

I know that this idea will be out there and that there is already a lot of artifact hate out there, but what about running 2x norn's annex in the deck. Seems like a lock down if your opponent is not playing white and does not have an answer for it. Not sure if this is a good idea, just wanted to throw it out there.

[Travis Lannoye]

Apr 24, 2012 18:28:06 GMT -5 ryanu said:

I know that this idea will be out there and that there is already a lot of artifact hate out there, but what about running 2x norn's annex in the deck. Seems like a lock down if your opponent is not playing white and does not have an answer for it. Not sure if this is a good idea, just wanted to throw it out there.

Norn's Annex is an artifact, not an enchantment, so anyone with access to Ancient Grudge/Acidic Slime will be able to handle it.

[John Galli]

He never said it was an enchantment Travis. . .

I'm all for suggestions but here are my problems with the Annex-

1.) Paying 2 life for an aggressive creature deck is usually never a problem. Even in close games with this deck, R/G aggro can almost always afford that life cost as can other aggro decks that are even quicker than them.

2.) Norn's Annex is a 5 drop unless you're paying life yourself, so there's no really good spot for it on the curve over your other spells and it just delays the inevitable. You almost time walk yourself with this spell which is just really bad. And if I did decide to play it for the full 5 mana I'd rather just cast elspeth or gideon.

3.) The deck needs lifegain against early creatures if anything. Timely Reinforcements is probably a better solution, and I noticed there's this new guy that could help-

[John Galli]

Here's another build I'm considering going forward:

B/W Tokens:

4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Angel of Jubilation

2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
12 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Angelic Destiny
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
1 Day of Judgment
1 Revoke Existence
1 Divine Offering

If RDW is popular, Timely Reinforcements and Celestial Purge will probably make a reappearance

[ryanu]

I think I am pretty set on running the following list. Still not 100% set on 2 or 3 vaults, but 3 are there for the time being:

4x Angel of Jubilation
4x Doomed Traveler

4x Honor of the Pure
4x Intangible Virtue

4x Lingering Souls
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Gather the Townsfolk

4x Oblivion Ring
4x Tragic Slip

3x Vault of the Archangel
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Swamp
11x Plains
4x Isolated Chapel

Sideboard:
4x Angelic Destiny
2x Divine Offering
2x Elspeth Tirel
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Stony Silence
4x Surgical Extraction


Please comment on your thoughts. Thanks

[Evan]

Angel of Jub should be Hero of Bladehold. It's far better if it's not removed, and the same if it's removed. Also, easier to cast, which is very relevant for this deck. I'd split O-rings into 2 Go For The Throat / 2 O-Ring. I like some Sorins main, but I like that card more then most people.


Cheers

[John Galli]

Found this on MTGO today, he cuts the champions (which both Ryan and I agreed were not great in this list, and adds a land + 3 day of judgments which makes it more into the true control deck it is)

battleofjace (4-0)
Standard Daily #3815212 on 05/08/2012

Main Deck
60 cards

4 Isolated Chapel
15 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
25 lands

4 Doomed Traveler
4 Hero of Bladehold
8 creatures

3 Day of Judgment
4 Gather the Townsfolk
2 Go for the Throat
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
2 Oblivion Ring
27 other spells

Sideboard
3 Angelic Destiny
2 Celestial Purge
4 Doom Blade
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Revoke Existence
2 Stony Silence
15 sideboard cards