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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 15, 2010 9:26:09 GMT -5
Pat, you might want to check out this article: strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/rogue-report-midnight-oakland/EDIT: I'm incredibly torn on which direction to go with this deck. I'm either going to play a Bant list or a BGW list. Each list has several pros and cons, from my experience with each... Bant:Pros: - Bant Charm. This card is amazing. It's versatile, it's an instant, and it provides an answer to just about every relevant threat in the format, from Tarmogoyf to Dark Depths to Gifts Ungiven. - Counters. Nevermind the fact that I'm a sucker for blue spells. There are some cards that just need to be countered, like Scapeshift, or Thopter Foundry, or Rite of Consumption (since you can't remove the Marit Lage token in response). - Noble Hierarch becomes a little better. Despite what the guy from ChannelFireball said about BoP being able to block a Marit Lage token, playing Bant makes Noble Hierarch better than BGW does. Cons: - Extirpate. This card is also just insane. It has so many applications that it is almost never a dead card. - Fetch-lands. Having to run Marsh Flats to dig for a Plains is a little awkward, and sometimes you really just need a Breeding Pool instead of a Hallowed Fountain. BGW:Pros: - More removal. Black has some pretty sick removal right now, including Smother, Putrefy (very underrated), Maelstrom Pulse, Doom Blade, Damnation, and Profane Command. - Extirpate. Like I said, this card is so good right now. - Better card draw. I would almost argue that Dark Confidant and Phyrexian Arena provide better card draw than Thirst for Knowledge and all the little cantrip spells that blue has. - Better fetching. With enemy fetch-lands, BGW becomes a more stable mana-base than Bant because Marsh Flats and Verdant Catacombs will always get you the correct dual land. Cons: - Less outs to Dark Depths. Aside from Path to Exile, the removal in BGW doesn't really handle Marit Lage tokens. Bant decks have bounce options and Bant Charms to help. - No Bant Charm. Putrefy is pretty close to Bant Charm, but Bant Charm is still way better because of its ability to hit Marit Lage. - No counters. When a Scapeshift player wants to combo off, BGW doesn't have much to say about it. If I had to make a snap decision, I'd go with the Bant list just because I'm a sucker for blue decks.
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Post by crazedferret on Feb 15, 2010 18:23:28 GMT -5
Hey travis, that deck seems quite similar to the other post you made. And in tossing that deck idea around in my head it occurred to me that saffi, crypt champion, and hissing iguanar work REALLY well together....However I don't really want to play that so much anymore as I think the bant deck will have a more stable base then going 5 color.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 16, 2010 9:39:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think we necessarily need to add more colors. Bant should give us enough options to play with.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 16, 2010 13:57:19 GMT -5
Pat, although your deck was different last time at the PTQ, what exactly did you lose to and can you remember any issues or difficulties that came up? Just curious, I want to get a little grasp for what might aid.
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Post by crazedferret on Feb 17, 2010 2:32:29 GMT -5
I lost to a scapeshift deck, a discard deck, a martyr deck (which I should have stalled out on time with him but I erred in playing my reveillarks), and a zoo deck (largely due to game loss on account of a missing cryptic, I was pulling that second game ahead with no problem).
The scapeshift deck looked a lot like zoo, but still I had mana open for a mana leak which he just waited another turn for---- I WON'T play mana leak anymore. I'd rather play the hinders and negates as well as meddling mages. The discard deck just destroyed my hand----The gifts should help here, but I don't really expect to see that again as it was not a strong contender to the rest of the field. Martyr was just annoying to play against, but the primal commands and cryptics really helped out here and I think setting up my Iona and llark strategies should masssacre his position especially when I primal command all his land back to the top of his library. Lets see him come back from that. With the zoo matchup he thought hemorraged my cryptic commands and I was missing one. I had primal command in hand as well as day of judgement so it was looking good despite, but none the less game loss ended the match. I've changed the deck up quite a bit since then, removed a number of ineffective cards and cards I just plain don't need so many of, and it should handle those matchups better now. So for the most part I've got those matchups prepped a little better this time around.
As for the issues, occasionally I'd be short on my other colors (other than green) due to pulling reflecting pools followed by basic land or treetop. Has been since remedied I "think". I need to pick up some white-blue manlands. In my solo testing it seems to fix better. Also I've decided on removing steve as he only gets me basics whereas oracle gets me either a land or a card and deals damage (not that it matters that much, but in faster matchups he might pose a little more consideration) when he blocks as opposed to steve he just sacrifices himself to get land. Plus oracle combined with the revillark triggers is pro (draw entire deck play ALL my land) So I think that steve becomes more wall of roots and probably the fourth path. In play testing the wall a little more the acceleration he gives me on both my turn and my opponnents is not to be overlooked. It nets me a turn earlier primal command or cryptic if I want it. During the martyr match I had problems getting a primal command in hand which I don't think will be a problem this time around with four in the deck and gifts.
I think the real problem is that it is somewhat untested with a few of the matches which I'm really probably just going to end up praying that I came up with the right answers. I havent really played against a number of front runners such as red deck, faeries, depths, thopter, affinity, cascade living end or hypergenesis. So if you have any ideas towards those, that would be helpful.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 17, 2010 9:22:19 GMT -5
I can probably help you by playing the Depths matchup a few times. I've seen it/read about it enough to have a pretty good idea of how it works. From what I have seen, their main strategy is to get the depths combo off, possibly with a Rite of Consumption as a finisher (this needs to be countered because you can't remove the token in response to the Rite). If that fizzles, they will either try to get the Depths combo again (if they have drawn more than one of the pieces) or they will go for Thopter/Sword as a backup plan. Oddly enough, both of these strategies can be temporarily stopped by Damping Matrix (hence its rise in popularity).
The RDW matchup is simple: stall the bastards, gain life, and punch them in the face for being too stupid to play a real deck.
Fae is pretty much the same strategy as it always was. The core of the deck is Mistbind Clique, Spellstutter Sprite, and Bitterblossom. The supplementary pieces now include Dark Confidant, Ancestral Vision, Smother, Cryptic Command, Mana Leak, Chrome Mox, and Spell Snare. Instead of Loxodon Warhammer, they now have Umezawa's Jitte. DO. NOT. EVER. LET. FAE. HAVE. AN. ACTIVE. JITTE.
The cascade decks are pretty much the same: either you have a counter for their free spell (Living End or Hypergenesis) or you don't. Not much to it.
Affinity is all about how much removal you can draw, and whether or not you can chump block their 1 or 2 large robots.
I agree that Steve is unnecessary for you (since you are running Oracles and Wall of Roots).
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 17, 2010 9:46:56 GMT -5
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Post by John Galli on Feb 17, 2010 12:37:37 GMT -5
Interesting. Ok here are my thoughts-
Scapeshift will likely be a deck where your sideboard comes into play more than anything. Your maindeck has much better odds against zoo, marytr, red, etc. That's not to say you can't pull out games against them in game 1, but I think your sideboard can improve this match significantly. I also would ABSOLUTELY not rule out mana leak simply because of that one situation that came up that you described. Mana leak is fantastic, it's a mana cheaper than hinder, it's a hell of a lot more versatile than Negate, and 3 mana is plenty most of the time. You got into a rough spot there against the shapeshift deck and that's all it was. Just my two cents, you can go whatever direction you would like to, but leak IMO is the strongest.
The discard deck can be ignored, I've never heard of one before so it's highly unlikely you'll see it again like you mentioned. Thopter-Depths (thepths) plays a lot of discard between thoughtseize, extripate, and duress, but you have stuff like eternal witness to bring back cards and it's something that every deck has to fight equally.
Marytr's always annoying to play against, but I think your deck has a good game against it. First off, they don't run counters, so you know that eventually your going to be able to get your business spells going. That primal command + eternal witness is going to happen, and like you said you can dig up stuff like Iona which will make their life hard. Especially if you can stick a meddling mage calling path or wrath, there's few outs left for them. The best thing here is to play quickly, mentally time your turns so that you are trying not to be longer than 1 minute a turn (preferably not longer than 30 seconds) but also pay attention so that some obvious bonehead play doesn't happen. I'd also try to realize a realistic goal to go for in the first few turns, and commit to that plan. A lot of times those games get so drawn out that one loses sight of what they're trying to accomplish other than the obvious win the game.
Zoo should be one of your strongest matchups. Adding more wall of roots will make a big difference IMO, and getting perhaps a few more playtesting hours in to see how you want to approach them. One of the more recent zoo decks I saw had Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Wild Nacatl, so be prepared to handle a quick opening. I would avoid the "land on top" strategy unless you know for sure your going to get there. This would probably be a match where just going the defensive route until you have enough mana to do unfair things would be the best
I think your sideboard needs to be Ironed out ASAP. Some of the decks you haven't played against are potent, and need to be addressed. Here's some considerations-
Meddling Mage (Your already going this route, and I think he's very strong for you)
Aven Mindcensor (not sure who'd be able to lend you them, but he's quite helpful against scapeshift, thopter-depths, etc).
Damping Matrix (I currently own 6 - I found Dan hadn't hiked his prices on them at Pegasus and bought him out. I want to try to sell my extra 2, but if I don't hear good deals for them I might be able to loan)
Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison (Trinisphere seems to do very little to your deck other than making a few guys 1 more mana, but it can be irritating to many decks. Ghostly Prison might help out in the stall process)
Tormod's Crypt (absolutely don't forget about dredge. It will be there, whether it's popular or not)
Elves and Faeries - I see these decks punishing you big time. We need to figure out some plan against them as your maindeck will pretty much lose these matches 90% of the time.
Negate - This is probably the right place for it.
Brainstorming - I think we'll need to do more of this over the next day or two to iron out the final plan. There's gotta be more solutions we can come up with.
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Post by crazedferret on Feb 17, 2010 14:19:00 GMT -5
yeah the fast decks like elves and barely boros sound like a pain. I currently don't have a great plan for them. I have a few hallowed burials a bit of removal and a couple walls plus the potential to cryptic lock. (all of which is counter-able, and for the most part elves and boros won't really care). I'm not sure how different the fae are from the old standard version, but I should probably have something against them. I saw on the post travis recently put up, an interesting idea Wall of denial and worship together, I don't know if it is worth it though.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 17, 2010 17:24:01 GMT -5
Wall of Denial + Worship sounds friggin sweet. Sure it gets taken down by wrath and bounce and stuff, but otherwise that's a pretty hot combo. There's also not a lot of enchantment hate out there.
All the suggestions you mentioned in regards to stopping elves and boros wouldn't do anything. Elves kills on turn 3 consistently, and when they combo off, they COMBO off. You'll need something that actually disrupts their plan. Usually they get going with the same plan a turn or two later if you disrupt them, so you'll need to make sure you have a couple 1-2 punches. Cards like Hallowed Burial and Cryptic just simply aren't fast enough and Wall of Roots doesn't stop an army of 30+ Elves or an instant kill card.
One spell that I've been wrapping ideas around recently is "Silence". The card has not been used at all up to this point and I have absolutely no idea why not as it's almost always a time-walk, it disrupts early strategies, and it's even useful lategame to ensure that you can buy yourself the turn you need to "do your thing". While I'd be looking to incorporate it into possible LD strategies, it could be a potential 3-4-of sideboard card for you to combat some of these early decks that do a lot before you can get online. It's not really there for boros, but it can certainly disrupt elves.
Another card you might want to consider against quick burn strategies would be "Rest for the Weary". It's a common from worldwake : 1W: Target player gains 4 life; Landfall; if you played a land this turn target player gains 8 life instead. So far there's been no discussion of this card but it'd be fairly hot sideboard tech. Refraction Trap is also pretty hot against Boros and Burn strategies (3W or trap for W if red sorcery or instant is played: Prevent up to 3 damage, then deal that much damage to target creature or player)
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 17, 2010 18:16:42 GMT -5
Against Elves, you need to make sure they don't combo off (usually by getting rid of their turn 1 dude during their upkeep and then stalling them out). Wall of Denial is useless against 300 Elves, and Worship is too slow.
Against burn, one life-gain spell is not enough. They will have 4 Lava Spikes, 4 Rift Bolts, 4 Lightning Bolts, and all kinds of other damage to throw at you, and their life total is irrelevant, so Trapping one measly Bolt back at them doesn't matter. Celestial Purge and Flashfreeze are also useless: they will just cast another Bolt. Pulse of the Fields is a decent option because you can recast it and they will run out of gas. Kitchen Finks, Aven Riftwatcher, and Kor Firewalker are all pretty tough to overcome. COP: Red is another cheap way to beat burn.
On paper, Boros looks like a burn deck with more creatures and less Bolts. Therefore, your Paths and Bant Charms become better.
Against Fae, it's the same old strategy, except with better utility cards (Jittes over Loxodon Warhammers, Smothers over Agony Warps, Chrome Moxes and Bobs over other standard cards).
I am currently main-decking 4 Aven Mindcensors because they are helpful against Zoo, Scapeshift, and Thopter Depths (all of which do a lot of searching). I am also playing 3 Engineered Explosives main-deck for various random things (they blow up lots of one-drop Elves, and all the two-drops in Fae). I haven't really figured out what all is going into my board yet.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 17, 2010 21:59:54 GMT -5
hmm, I guess I couldn't disagree with your statements any more Travis.
Against Elves, nuking their turn 1 play does relatively little. It *might* buy you a turn if your lucky but usually not. It's generally more about having an instant speed sweeper effect, or a turn 2 sweeper effect as you'll hit a lot more guys that way. Silence also accomplishes at being able to stall them on the turn they should go off, assuming your going to deal with them going off the very next turn. Trinisphere and Ethersworn Canonist are the best options, as they throws off Elves' gameplan completely.
Against Burn, Pat has removal already and primal command for lifegain. The cards I suggested were a supplment to his blocking abilities (wall of roots, oracle), and his lifegain/removal. I'll give you that Kitchen Finks is probably a better card for Pat than some of the ones I mentioned, but gaining 8 life for 2 mana against burn would probably be ideal at giving Pat the kind of time he needs. The burn decks vary greatly, from being all about burn to being the AIR variety with early magus and bloodmoon effects or the possiblity of a turn 1-2 deus. It really depends on what your up against.
I'm not sure what paper your looking at when talking about the boros deck, as Adrian just said the complete opposite of you in his star city article in regards to that deck. He said it actually has far too few creatures and too much burn, and that's it's tough to consider zektar shrine a creature. I'd also be very aware of this deck Pat, as it looks like it will make a rise in the field (I might even play it if I can't scrape together a good enough R/W stax or R/W boat brew list)
Fae is fairly similar at this point to what it was in standard, albeit with some of the changes Travis mentioned. I haven't seen too many running chrome mox, or at least not many of them if they do, so not sure Travis what lists your looking at. The problem is, fae is damn effecient, just like it was in standard, and so you need to have some gameplan against it. I frequently see our group and others just "ignore" the matchup thinking that they can "deal" with it, only to get steamrolled. And judging from the popularity it had at Chicago, I'm sure it will be in force again.
Aven Mindcensor seems pretty solid against most decks, altho I don't see a terrible amount of value against zoo. Yes, I realize it stops fetching, but usually it's just killed the minute after it's played, and it's incredibly slow and underpowered against them.
Another card you can consider sideboard wise (if it doesn't hurt you too much) is suppression field. It doesn't help many of the matches we discussed, but it helps against certain ones.
Not sure really what else at this point to compile.
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Post by John Galli on Feb 17, 2010 23:31:09 GMT -5
Pat just wanted to forward you this PTQ top 8 list, it's scapeshift but it has a lot of the same cards as yours (btw I have 4 scapeshift if anyone needs them)-
1 Breeding Pool 2 Flooded Grove 4 Forest 3 Island 2 Misty Rainforest 2 Mountain 4 Steam Vents 4 Stomping Ground 2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle 24 lands
2 Eternal Witness 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker 1 Pestermite 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder 3 Wood Elves 11 creatures 1 Echoing Truth 2 Gifts Ungiven 3 Peer Through Depths 1 Ponder 2 Primal Command 4 Remand 2 Repeal 4 Scapeshift 4 Search for Tomorrow 2 Tooth and Nail 25 other spells
Sideboard 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All 3 Firespout 1 Fracturing Gust 2 Gigadrowse 4 Kitchen Finks 1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror 1 Shadow of Doubt 1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Also, I noticed in the last channel fireball article that Travis posted the guy makes a good point about running birds. Not only does it fix mana, but it blocks turn 1 thoughtseize into turn 2 20/20 against depths. that situation will most certainly come up at the PTQ, so it might be worth noting.
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Post by crazedferret on Feb 18, 2010 12:57:12 GMT -5
ok so I picked up a few cards today, so this is what i have left to get.
Main deck 1 hinder 1 body double 1 mirror entitiy 1 hallowed burial 3 gifts
I need to revise my lands as Im not paying $11 a piece for celestial collonades. If you are not going to use your hallowed fountains or breeding pools, can I borrow them travis?
Sideboard I need
1 meddling mage 1 trinket mage 1 chalice of the void 1 engineered explosives
and then i need to come up with 3 cards of goodness against little critter swarms. That would preferably be good against both fae and elves. I might stick a few day of j's back in if I can't find anything better. I wish something like washout or fade away were still available.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 18, 2010 13:17:57 GMT -5
I am not using my Breeding Pools, not so sure about the Hallowed Fountains. If Mystic Gate would be an acceptable substitute, I can let you use those.
I should also have the Hinder, Body Double, Mirror Entity, Hallowed Burial, Gifts, Meddling Mage, and Trinket Mage. Not so sure about Chalice and Explosives.
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