+1/+1 counter abuse

[abeckett]

The addition of evolve in GC has me itching to build a deck focused on +1/+1 counters and all the fun that comes with them. The question is...which direction do I go? I'm considering the following options.

UG - Experiment Kraj would be the obvious choice. Prime Speaker Zegana is nice, but Kraj supports the theme better. The main weakness here is that there's not much in the way of removal. Also, Kraj tends to wander towards unintentional combos and shines best when I run some otherwise marginal support cards (rings, bracers, thousand-year elixir)

UGB - Vorosh would be my preferred general. The main benefits of black are the sweepers and utility removal. Corpsejack Menace is also awesome. I also get some strong options for recursion.

UGW - Jenara grows and can provide counters to move around. I get sweepers and a few creatures that play well with the +1/+1 theme. White also probably works best with a sub-ETB theme, since I can run Venser.

Thoughts?

[Zach]

I'd go with Jenara, it opens you up to a third color, and you can still run kraj.

[Travis Lannoye]

I'd stick to a Simic commander of some kind. Green has tons of non-creature removal, and even a few creature-removal spells in Beast Within/Desert Twister/Dupe/Karn Liberated. Blue adds Phyrexian Ingester and countless ways to counter, bounce or steal creatures. There's no need to add a third color.

[John Galli]

I agree with Travis, I'd go simic. I think primespeaker is actually pretty sweet, but I think you should go with kraj. Challenge yourself to build it differently then before, maybe even on the $50 budget again, and/or maybe a group effort on the list like we sort of did for my karador deck. That deck is easily my favorite of my three I have and always has crazy stuff going on.

[abeckett]

I don't think I'll be going $50 on this. I had a $50 Kraj list for awhile and it never got played.

I actually brewed up a pretty sweet Jenara list tonight. There's tons of synergy and most of the non-land cards I don't think I have in other decks. It also gives me a few different paths to victory instead of just relying on Kraj to get the job done. Almost everything cares about or generates counters.

For the sake of sharing it, since it was pretty much done...this is the Kraj list I was leaning toward. There are still a few card choices that can be tweaked, but this is the current version.

Creatures - 33
Experiment Kraaj
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Bloom Tender
2 Gyre Sage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Zameck Guildmage
3 Eternal Witness
3 Fertilid
3 Gilder Bairn
3 Plaxcaster Frogling
4 Fathom Mage
4 Forgotten Ancient
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Master Biomancer
4 Mystic Snake
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Spike Weaver
5 Acidic Slime
5 Beguiler of Wills
5 Genesis
5 Morphling
5 Murkfiend Liege
5 Mycoloth
5 Seedborn Muse
6 Arcanis, the Omnipotent
6 Deadeye Navigator
6 Draining Whelk
6 Duplicant
6 Prime Speaker Zegana
6 Vigor
7 Avenger of Zendikar
8 Woodfall Primus

Instants - 5
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Beast Within
5 Mystic Genesis
x Biomass Mutation
x Strength of the Tajuru

Sorcery - 6
2 Regrowth
3 Cultivate
3 Kodama's Reach
5 Urban Evolution
7 Tooth and Nail
8 Praetor's Counsel

Enchantments – 8
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Copy Enchantment
3 Equilibrium
4 Greater Good
4 Ooze Flux
4 Opposition
5 Doubling Season

Artifacts - 10
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
2 Illusionist's Bracers
3 Crystal Shard
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Thousand-year Elixir
4 Birthing Pod
5 Cauldron of Souls

Planeswalkers - 1
4 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land - 37
Alchemist's Refuge
Breeding Pool
Command Tower
Flooded Grove
Gaea's Cradle
Hinterland Harbor
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Misty Rainforest
Mosswort Bridge
Novijen, Heart of Progress
Oran-Rief
Reliquary Tower
Simic Growth Chamber
Simic Guildgate
Temple of the False God
Tropical Island
Forest - 10
Island - 11

[abeckett]

For the sake of showing the progression, here's the Jenara list. Notice that the focus in this one becomes much more about the +1/+1 counter aspect of the cards. Many token cards actually benefit from those counters as well, so they have been added as well. A slight ETB theme is also here, since it can allow me to re-buy key effects and bounce can be versatile removal.

The land base is not done yet, but you can expect most of the usual suspects.
Creatures -31
Jenara, Asura of War
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Zameck Guildmage
3 Champion of Lambholt
3 Eternal Witness
3 Gilder Bairn
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Twilight Drover
4 Forgotten Ancient
4 Cytoplast Root-Kin
4 Fathom Mage
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Master Biomancer
4 Mystic Snake
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Spike Weaver
5 Beguiler of Wills
5 Genesis
5 Juniper Order Ranger
5 Mycoloth
5 Seedborn Muse
6 Deadeye Navigator
6 Duplicant
6 Draining Whelk
6 Experiment Kraj
6 Prime Speaker Zegana
6 Vigor
7 Avenger of Zendikar
8 Woodfall Primus

Instants - 4
3 Bant Charm
3 Beast Within
x Biomass Mutation
x Strength of the Tajuru

Sorcery - 6
3 Cultivate
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Wrath of God
6 Austere Command
8 Praetor's Counsel
x Genesis Wave

Enchantments – 16
1 Burgeoning
2 Sterling Grove
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Aura Shards
3 Copy Enchantment
3 Equilibrium
4 Defense of the Heart
4 Greater Good
4 Ooze Flux
4 Opposition
5 Asceticism
5 Cathar’s Crusade
5 Doubling Season
5 Inexorable Tide
5 Mirari’s Wake

Planeswalkers - 2
4 Elspeth, Knight Errant
5 Venser, the Sojourner

Artifacts - 5
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
4 Birthing Pod
5 Cauldron of Souls

[Travis Lannoye]

Interesting, you actually have a lot more white in here than I thought you would have.

One card I'd suggest is Forgotten Ancient.

Hope you have a big bag of dice.

[abeckett]

Forgotten Ancient is in there...he just got slipped above Cytoplast Rootkin for some reason.

The deck has a about 13 white spells. Most of them are gold cards.

And I have a ton of dice. The question really becomes whether I want to bother with a deck that has sooooo much upkeep to remember. I'll have to really pay attention for triggers, as there would be a lot of them.

[Travis Lannoye]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at...you're going to have a lot of things to keep track of and a lot of board clutter. One big table bump might just shift your whole board state.

[abeckett]

I guess the question comes down to...which of the lists looks like more fun? I'm not firm on either one yet. Does Kraj look too broken or just broken enough? I mean, it can make infinite green mana under the right conditions, but I don't have much to do with it other than two spells that would likely be winning the game for me anyway. I intentionally left out Genesis Wave because of this.

[John Galli]

I think the first thing I'd do is remove the following-

Deadeye Navigator
Tooth and Nail
Spike Weaver
Opposition

These cards to me are all too griefer in EDH and I'd pretty much never play them unless your planning to go play competitively somewhere. Aside from that both lists are really similar so it's hard to tell but I like the ideas. Other cards to maybe consider - (the card that is like half a doubling season but can't remember name), Evolution Vat, increasing savagery, travel preparations, primordial Hydra, chorus of the conclave, proliferate spells

[Travis Lannoye]

I'd agree on Deadeye Navigator and Tooth & Nail, but I don't really see anything wrong with Spike Weaver or Opposition. You aren't spewing out that many tokens (as far as I can tell), and there are enough wraths in our current meta that Spike Weaver could be dealt with.

I would also consider looking into some of the proliferate cards, but only in the sense that they would function well on their own if necessary. For example, Contagion Engine seems very good whether you have a board state or not, but Viral Drake seems like it needs something else in play to be worth anything.

Of course, now I need to pick up an Aether Snap...

[abeckett]

I can give on Deadeye, since I understand that it's a griefer. Granted, it doesn't stop other people from running it and he shows up quite a bit.

Opposition and Spike Weaver I don't see as too horrible though. They shore up the fact that UG lacks in the ability to permanently deal with threats. If I went UGw, I would probably switch oppo to glare of subdual. It serves a similar role but stops me from locking down lands. It would be much stronger in the token-heavy build, so I can see cutting it.

As for Tooth...what does it really do that's worse than a bunch of the other tutors people run? I'm not playing anything that ends the game, especially if Deadeye Gets the boot. I almost always run it as a utility spell that grabs the best creatures for the situation.

[John Galli]

Deadeye I think is obvious, but you guys see that.

Opposition I only have a problem with if it's in a deck that can abuse it. I don't know if your deck has the cards for that so it might be fine, I'd have to look closer at the list. If you're simply using it on a 1 for 1 basis and not comboing, then I don't mind it.

Spike Weaver in a deck that can basically make him continually fog seems incredibly annoying. Sure you can kill it, but unless you exile it there's a strong chance of recursion. You have stuff like Eternal Witness in there and I'm sure a few other cards to make sure he sees repeated abuse. And I don't see the argument that U/G lacks removal, I think there's been enough recent sets that this has changed a bit. You have Beast Within, Pognify, Rapid Hybridization, Spin Into Myth, Desert Twister, Evacuation, etc, and that's just to name a few (not to mention copious bounce spells like Capsize)

Tooth and Nail is honestly one of my least favorite cards PERIOD for EDH. I have not played in a single game where it didn't dramatically impact the game at the point when it's played whether it was leading to everyone quitting, someone winning on the spot, or ensuring a quick scoop a few turns later. The card is just not fair IMO, I don't care if it costs 9 mana with entwine (that's easy to do in EDH especially in green and especially quickly). PLUS, you have eternal witness in your deck, and that always seems to be one of the tutor targets so that you can rinse, repeat, and go hogwild. Just because terastodon or some other nasty isn't in there doesn't mean the ability to get two creatures in play won't be game-breaking. I've just never seen a game that is fun to play after a tooth and nail hits. The common argument is "well you can counter it" but our group doesn't typically play many if any counterspells to beginwith (aside from my hate-mongering Talrand deck that I want to rebuild anyway).

[abeckett]

I'm curious what combos there are with opposition. More for the sake of avoiding them than putting them in. I can understand where it might be oppressive in some situations.

I understand your hate of TaN. Do you feel the same about Chord of Calling and Green Sun's Zenith? Or is just the fact that it gets any two creatures and puts them into play?

I'm not a fan of one-shot removal like Pongify/Rapid Hybridization. One shot stuff, for me, pretty much has to have modal uses (Putrefy/Mortify/Vindicate) or remove the threat for good (Swords/PtE). Spin into Myth falls under the tuck category, which I hate with a passion because it always seems to get aimed at generals. Desert Twister is at least in the camp of being able to hit anything, but it's a 6 mana sorcery. Capsize falls under a similar category because you need to leave six mana open.

And yes Travis...get that Aether Snap in there. I'll start running Rest in Peace in everything as well.