When standard gets stale

[John Galli]

So, as much as I'm always raising the banner for Standard, I'm honestly really sick of it right now. It's all UWR Midrange, Jund, R/X Aggro, or Zombies. There are a ton of cool cards in the format and none of them are seeing play.

I'm thinking about playing a brew for SCG. I haven't come up with said brew yet but I want to get the ideas going. While the brew will probably not be anything like these, I found these articles interesting recently-

www.starcitygames.com/article/25759_Thank-God-Its-FNM-GU-Elves.html

www.channelfireball.com/home/breaking-through-one-mans-trash-2/

Anyone else want to try and make some fun original deck? I realize we're not pro tour players with dozens of hours to pour into testing but this format is stale enough that I think you can both have fun and possibly attack it. I'd be curious to hear others thoughts, I know some of you be lurking on these forums

[abeckett]

I love the elfball deck, but I tend to agree that it's not consistent enough in the primal surge/infinite reflection form to take to a big event. I seem to recall seeing a RUG list somewhere that focused more on just using Kessig Wolf Run to win the damage race.

If I was going to brew, I would be looking at midrange decks. They will give you the right mix of aggression and board control.

[Travis Lannoye]

This is exactly why I stopped playing standard...it gets stale very quickly and one or two cards can dominate the entire format (Thragtusk, Boros Reckoner, etc).

I'd be looking to brew some stuff for Modern or Legacy, since the formats seem a lot healthier and more diverse, and you have a lot more options to work with.

If you must stick with Standard, I'd try the Immortal Ones list that I posted a few threads ago.

[crazedferret]

John I've been trying to figure out what I'm going to play for that april tourney for the last month and I still haven't got that figured out. I've been all over the board on this too bouncing all over the place. I have a deck idea right now that at least seems to be competing with red deck as well as a pile of other ideas that each seem to have interesting points if not strong points. SO I'll give you a few of them and see what you think. Maybe you'll see some potential in them.

I call this one SEWER DWELLER on account of the secondary goal of it is to use the undercity informers to unburial an angel (from the sewer obviously, what else is under the city?). Plays out like a stompy instead of a reanimator deck with usually bigger stuff than most decks can handle and then later game if it stalls out on the ground, you can combo out.

4 Undercity Informer (self mill to hit angel combos or opponnent mill plan)
4 Garruk Relentless (finds pieces quicker if left alive, good verse control also has potential for ult, can act as removal)
2 Angel of Serenity (I find in cockatrice putting the angel trigger on the stack and then sacking in response with undercity is an awesome onesided permanent board wipe)
4 Thragtusk (life gain, good beater, leaves a body behind)
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim (human that powers out three's and four's, late game the tap to sac themselves to undercity)
3 Arbor Elf (more first turn plays)
4 Call of the Conclave (I find that this is just big enough that red deck doesn't run over it)
4 Selesnya Charm (go away other angels, thragtusks, and hastey dragons, in a pinch is a 2/2 or a +2 trample)
2 Geist-Honored Monk (infinite dudes with combo, gets huge, flying tokens, nice to unbury)
2 Fiend Hunter (combo piece, I find it terrible in most cases except the one where it is hiding my angel)

3 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Godless Shrine
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Vault of the Archangel (life gain and acts as removal)

2 Angel of Glory's Rise (combo piece, res's all your humans, some goodness when you can hide it and mill either yourself for more dudes or your opponnent)
2 Unburial Rites (just plain good if you can get to play it)
2 Gavony Township (makes your sometimes weak guys into threats)

This one at the moment seems to have the most potential from what I've played it against on cockatrice. I'm not fully satisfied with it though, I feel it could use something and I'm not sure what that is. I almost feel like red would be good in there somewhere for kessig wolf run and burning tree emissary but that becomes an entirely different deck I think.

Another idea I had was with rapid hybridization, turning it on your own creatures. Think for a moment, turn 1 play a land, turn two play young wolf or doomed traveler or maybe an elf. Play in response to removal and you have yourself a 2/2 and a 3/3 or a 1/1 flier and a 3/3 or maybe just blank their removal and give yourself a decent blocker. Combat-wise against a quick red deck it effectively neutralizes their first three plays. I don't know what else the rest of the deck should look like though which is part of the problem. I would think you'd want snapcaster to recur the rapid hybridizations and probably azorious and selesnya charms, but other than that? I don't know. You could do bone splinters too but the instant speed seems important. Slitherhead maybe? Gives you a 4/4 quickily? maybe loyal cathars?

I've thought about humans and how to not play cards like mulch and grisly salvage (although I know they can be good). I don't like playing those as the quick decks right now require something on the board. I've tried to play out esper humans, black/white humans with cartel aristocrat and I haven't liked those iterations yet although I'm still finding interesting ideas like wakedancer turn.

I thought about some kind of all enchantment deck or an enchantment plus token strategy. Assemble the legions seems like such an awesome card and I really do want to play it. That plus descent into madness. There is also a ton of pacifism type effects as well as eight oblivion rings currently, but there's no real advantage to it other than the fact that there isn't a ton of enchantment removal.

Some thing with deathrite shaman where you play ghost quarters so you don't lose tempo and still attack their mana base, although I have no idea what else would go into that.

I played against someone in the last tourney I played in who was playing with Thrull parasites and it seemed like such an interesting card especially in an immortal ones kind of deck. Also vexing devil in an immortal ones kind of deck

I've played around with Grixis deck cause I have some of the cards and I don't like anything I've created so far as it'd need things like hastey dragons and reckoners. Although clone is always fun and Chandra seems interestingly good at the moment.

Tried to convert the door deck into a turbo fog kind of deck but that doesn't seem to work very well.

There is still heartless summoning, but I'm not sure that there's anything super spectacular to cheat out with it. Maybe angels?

I want to somehow abuse High priest of pennance with something like izzet staticaster, but I'd need some kind of pump for high priest which wouldn't be available until after turn two, usually after it's dead.

Then there's the new liliana and crypt ghast for tons of mana but I'm not sure what to use it on. There's of course mutilate for a sweeper, but does it need to be monoblack--you can fetch duals with liliana. vampires maybe with nocturnus?

That's about it for my ideas aside from the typical current deck lists

[Travis Lannoye]

Pat, some of your ideas are actually in tune with what other major pros are playing right now. For example, a lot of the Human Reanimator lists have gone to Undercity Informer over Cartel Aristocrat as their sac outlet of choice because the milling part of the Informer is actually useful, unlike the one for the Aristocrat. They also play Burning-Tree Emissary (another Human) so they can go infinite and mill you out completely. For example, you could check out this video or this deck list.

The other idea you had with Rapid Hybridization has also been discussed as a fringe idea on MTG Salvation. There's a thread in there about BUG tempo decks, and they utilize things like Deathrite Shaman, Lotleth Troll, Young Wolf, Strangleroot Geist, Dreg Mangler, and Snapcaster Mage, along with a bunch of Charms, Abrupt Decays, and other cheap spells. I played the deck for awhile and it was decent, but not all that great.

EDIT:
@heartless Summoning: The problem with this card is that it's still wildly inconsistent. Your chances of winning are incredibly dependent on having it in play, and there are going to be too many games where you either don't draw it or it gets killed by Abrupt Decay, or by the time you untap with it on turn three, your opponent has a huge Champion of the Parish/Stromkirk Noble and you're too far behind for it to matter.

@mono-black: Check out Conley Woods' list from the Pro Tour for some ideas on where to go with that concept. You can read his article here: www.channelfireball.com/home/breaking-through-black-by-popular-demand-14th/

EDIT AGAIN: Conley just posted some videos of his mono-black list here: www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-conley-rogues-gallery-18-1/#1

If I were you, I'd look more into the reanimator idea...the addition of Undercity Informer seems really solid.

[John Galli]

Agreement with Travis's second post, I was going to post some of that stuff Pat if you haven't see it already.

One thing I strongly differ on with both Andrew and Travis is how I approach a format or deckbuilding. I realize there are established decklists. I realize "pro" players put in a large amount of testing time. I realize the "internet" covers many ideas you may already have. But at the end of the day you have to bring your own element to thinking about your cards, your ideas, and your deck. I've never believed that I wasn't capable of making a nice deck or playing competitively. If people just copied everyone else all day there would never be any innovation. If I just said, well someone else already had a discussion thread going on it and this or that card looks fringe so I'll immediately dismiss it I'm only hurting myself.

I'm not saying to be ignorant of what's around you nor of the fact that it is very difficult to make a successful deck in a environment that is often considered solved by people with more time, but I'm also sick of the common talk on here that I don't put in as much time. I have played a ton of magic recently and have played off and on for 18 years. I can figure things out and I think I've adequately tested a lot of stuff too.

I realize this is probably going to come off as a rant, which I'm not intending, but Travis your first comments almost always seem to be a lecture about the way things are with magic. Pat's post was more in line with what I was looking for. Ignore the realities of the fact that its difficult to brew and instead lets talk ideas and get the wheels turning in the brain. If I make 40 decklists and they're all failures, big whoop. At least were having fun and trying cards that aren't part of someone else's 75. I'm not advocating to play 2/3 of a deck with obscure draft cards, I'm just saying to be more willing to experiment. I found a lot of cards with my red deck over the years that have blown people out that no one else plays simply because too many people dismissed the card or didn't think about it enough. And in a standard format with a rotating list of 6-8 decks winning, the format is not solved. I probably wont come anywhere close to making a tier 1 deck, but shit I might have more fun with a tier 2/3 deck of my design. I might go back and play rdw or jund a week later or have it as a backup but it never hurts to mix it up.

Ok, all that said lets get down to thoughts on deck ideas. There are five areas I'm looking to explore at the moment.

1.) Cipher or clone deck with possible inclusions of Elvish visionary, cackling counterpart, stolen identity, infinite reflection, hands of binding. There's really two ideas here, one would probably be a cipher deck, the other a clone deck. Both routes I want to talk about.

2.) A simic deck. I saw a lot of them online in testing prior to gatecrash's release and I'd like to see if there's anything workable here. Cards like primespeaker get the blood going

3.) R/W Humans - there were some brews that made splashes around the time of avacyn restored's release, and some really cool things you could do in avacyn draft. I'm curious if there's more here but this is the thing I'm least excited about as I think the format is way too tough for it.

4.) Burning vengeance deck

5.) Something involving dark imposter

I'm not to big a fan of an immortal ones deck at this time. Cool card and I've played against a few decks rrevolving around it but just not my cup of tea.

I'd be curious to hear ideas (not links and decklists) if people want to talk shop about it or have card suggestions / prototype lists we could start testing to see what cards are fun and what aren't. And like I had mentioned, the articles I linked to were meant as food for thought, not as something I was going to slam at an SCG

[abeckett]

John, I'm sorry if you think I'm dismissive of brainstorming decks. Actually, it's quite the opposite. I jot down lists all the time of things I think would be fun to play. The reality is I just don't have the time to test much or the desire to track down cards, hence the larger reliance on lists and testing data of people with proven success at the game.

I do not deny that there is plenty of tech or effective cards that they overlook though. Also, results can be skewed if they didn't hit deck 'x' through the course of eight rounds, when it's their worst matchup.

On deck ideas, some general thoughts on each of your points:

1. I've thought about how to abuse Cipher and I believe any list using it should focus on 4x Invisible Stalker as an auto-include. Still, the only two cards I really like with actual Cipher are Hands of Binding and Stolen Identity. I think the others are just a little expensive for the results they yield, although the draw a card one could be decent as a singleton. It's worth exploring.

2. A good simic deck would make me happy. I've actually brainstormed a few lists on this as well, although many of them start dipping into red or black for removal. The synergy between Zameck Guildmage and Undying creatures seems really strong, although maybe a little slow. I would probably look at RUG with a creature base like this:

4x Experiment One
4x Young Wolf
4x Gyre Sage
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Zameck Guildmage (4 seems like too much, although it's worth testing)

Red splash would basically be for Searing Spear and Kessig Wolf Run to push through extra damage. This could also run the Rapid Hybridization strategy to cash in your undying guys after an attack. Alternately, black would give you access to Abrupt Decay and the other solid removal cards.

Or, just regular UG with Rancor and Simic Charm as pump spells. Maybe a couple Vorapede to serve as finishers.

3. RW Humans - no experience with this one at all. I wouldn't mind seeing a decklist though, if you have one.

Pat - I would take a look at some of the decks Travis linked to. Not to copy, but to just see if there are any cards they might have thought of that could be useful in your list. I really like the idea of using Undercity Informer to load the yard, although I would not dismiss Grisly Salvage as another option to dump cards in there while grabbing a threat.

[John Galli]

No problem. Let the brewing begin then

1.) Clone deck-

+ + + + + + ? + + +

[crazedferret]

1 I'm right there with you on the clone and cipher concept. Would love to make that work somehow. Stolen Identity is awesome fun/good. What about on something indestructible? There's a 3 drop comes to mind.
2 Simic would take some serious and careful consideration of creatures of which personally I don't think we have enough good ones to make a grow type simic deck out of, but I haven't tested this either so who knows.
3 Red white humans - I found a list the other day that was a fair beating with a bunch of white first strike dudes and rancor. I would think that and the +3+0 red aura would be good.
4 I have no personal interest to play burning vengeance, but I'll certainly help the brainstorming.
5 dark imposter seems rather mana hungry and probably should be surrounded by something like crypt ghast. Perhaps the "monoblack" idea I had.

[Evan]

Heh, standard is so stale I can think of 10 different competitive decks to play . That's not counting just playing whatever you feel like, which works fine every time I do it.


Cheers

[John Galli]

Alright bringing this thread back. I realize my picture fiesta was a bit much I just thought the deck idea looked cool

Another concept I've been toying with on cockatrice is Mono Green Stompy. Some lists have done well in small events on MTGO but I brewed mine basically from scracth and then tested a bit to see what I like. First there was the initial consideration list-

Deadbridge Goliath
Elvish Visionary
Experiment One
Predator Ooze
Primordial Hydra
Strangleroot Geist
Ulvenwald Tracker
Wasteland Viper
Wild Beastmaster
Wolfbitten Captive
Wolfir Avenger
Yeva, Nature's Herald
Acidic Slime
Champion of Lambholt
Silklash Spider
Slaughterhorn
Soul of the Harvest
Spire Tracer
Thragtusk
Tree of Redemption
Vorapede
Wolfir Silverheart
Young Wolf
Arbor Elf

Rancor
Triumph of Ferocity
Wild Defiance
Giant Growth
Hunger of the Howlpack
Joint Assault
Ranger's Guile
Savage Surge
Blessings of Nature
Increasing Savagery
Predatory Rampage
Revenge of the Hunted

Sideboard Stuff:
Ground Seal
Crushing Vines
Clinging Mists
Naturalize
Bramblecrush
Grafdigger's Cage
Moonsilver Spear
Pithing Needle
Ring of Kalonia
Runechanter's Pike
Staff of Nin
Tormod's Crypt
Trading Post

Ultimately after playing several games, I'm here-

4 Experiment One
4 Wolfbitten Captive
3 Ulvenwald Tracker
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Slaughterhorn
4 Wolfir Avenger
3 Yeva, Nature's Herald
2 Wolfir Silverheart

3 Garruk Relentless

4 Rancor
2 Giant Growth

19 Forest
4 Cathedral of War

Sideboard:
4 Predator Ooze
3 Ground Seal
2 Silklash Spider
2 Clinging Mists
2 Bramblecrush
2 Predatory Rampage

Curious on peoples thoughts. Stompy has always been one of my favorite archetypes and this deck has some absolutely explosive draws. One game I had Experiment One (tragic slipped) into experiment one + wolf bitten captive, into strangleroot geist + flipped captive, into garruk. Wolfir Avenger and Yeva have been surprisingly powerful, and garruk was originally sideboard but has proven to be a fairly necessary element in the deck. A lot of it is still very early in the testing phase but it's fun to play at the very least.

Cipher deck:

Andrew I agree on your thoughts. I think hands of binding is easily playable (there's a guy who's been crushing it with Bant Delver winning boxes at Mox Mania), but beyond that it's tough. I like Stolen Identity, I'm not sure if it's right in a delver style build because of cost but I think it's playable in something. I immediately went to invisible stalker in a cipher build too although I don't know if it's absolutely necessary. I think it will depend on the final list. Evasion and/or hexproof are certainly things to think about. I think the draw a card cipher and the return creature from graveyard are both interesting, and possibly the token generator. They are all a little slow but they could get nuts depending on what else your deck can do.

I don't have a list yet for the R/W Humans, but some cards that pique my interest that I saw some play with were Goldnight Commander, Burn at the Stake?, Kessig Malcontents, etc.

The Burning Vengeance deck I've tested quite a bit and had a lot of trouble figuring out if it can make it or not. The meta might have just been more agreeable back at the time of states 2 years ago. It feels like all the pieces are there but it doesn't do much, and I always feel like combining it with something else instead. Perhaps like the Blasphemous Act / Stuffy Doll / Reckoner combo similar to the list that AJ Kerrigan was writing about today or a delver list since rolling temblor misses him. Not sure. I've tried stuff close to the precon with fettergeist too and just not walked away impressed. I still want to pursue it though.

The simic decks I saw online early involved a lot of the new cool cards. Experiment One, the rare mutant guy, primespeaker, etc. Basically building into big-time creatures. G/U has such an issue with removal, although after playing the stompy deck I think maybe any evolve deck probably wants Garruk Relentless. Having a way to kill guys and possibly play tokens that make your guys evolve is pretty sweet. Garruk Primal Hunter could also be Nutty, although there's a lot of competition at that CC in Simic.

@ Dark Imposter - I think I actually just want to play him in EDH more than anything. Probably not anywhere close to standard playable

[Travis Lannoye]

If I was gonna make a Simic deck, the card I would focus on the most is Master Biomancer. He survives Abrupt Decay and Searing Spear, and you can ramp into him on turn three. If you untap with him, things get real good real fast.

@dark Impostor: It's barely even an EDH card. You need nine mana (9!) to make him do anything, and for that kind of investment you should really get more than what he does. I wish it were different...I bought a set of foil copies for a buck or two and none have seen play.

@cipher: It's too slow and expensive and easily disrupted for a format dominated by one and two-drops. The only borderline playable card is Hands of Binding. That being said, there is probably a tempo deck of some kind that would use Hands in it (I tried it once or twice when I was brewing BUG tempo). However, anything else with cipher on it is probably about 2-3 turns too slow right now.

@rw Humans: Aren't there already several top-tier Humans decks right now?

[John Galli]

I didn't even notice, but apparently someone was thinking the same thing as me at Las Vegas-

(top 16 SCG Las Vegas last weekend)-

4 Boros Elite
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Kessig Malcontents
4 Kruin Striker
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Wojek Halberdiers
Creatures [27]

4 Bonds of Faith
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Thatcher Revolt
Spells [12]

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Mountain
6 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
Lands [21]

Deck Total [60]

3 Legion Loyalist
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Volcanic Strength
4 War Priest of Thune

[John Galli]

Mono Green just 4-0'd a daily. I might try a similar list on tuesday if I can get the rest of the stuff i need via my store credit-

Main Deck
60 cards

20 Forest
20 lands

4 Arbor Elf
3 Deadbridge Goliath (need)
4 Gyre Sage (need)
4 Predator Ooze (need)
2 Slaughterhorn
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Wandering Wolf
4 Wolfir Avenger
3 Wolfir Silverheart (need 2)
32 creatures

4 Rancor (need 2-3)
4 Revenge of the Hunted (need 4)
8 other spells

Sideboard
2 Crushing Vines
4 Fog
3 Giant Growth
4 Ranger's Guile
2 Triumph of Ferocity

[John Galli]

Got first tonight at Mox's Standard win-a-box and split 46 packs. They had two pods of 16, each with a box for the top prize. 3 of the 4 of us who all drew in the two pods were playing RDW, and the fourth was Box (Andrew) playing junk reanimator. A friend of mine was the winner of the other pod playing 72 of my 75. Not sure how we all made it that far in the hostile environment that is the current standard, but if you don't try you can't win.

I played this list tonight-

4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
1 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Searing Spear
3 Boros Charm
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Pillar of Flame

4 Sacred Foundry
4 Clifftop Retreat
14 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Reckless Waif
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
1 Thundermaw Hellkite

Round 1 vs. BRW Vampires (Adam)

Adam's a younger kid that just started playing recently but he's been acquiring cards quickly and like many of the people at the shop I took him under my wing and helped him tweak his deck a few weeks ago. Well he had upgraded since last week as I soon learned in game 1 as I faced down an active bloodline keeper alongside an active Olivia. Needless to say, game 1 was his. Game 2 waif came in since I didn't think he had a lot of 1 drops or removal, and this turned out to be correct. I flipped waif turn 1 on the play, ash zealot turn 2, reckoner turn 3, and hellrider turn 4 for the win. Game 3 we battled back and forth with us trading removal spells and guys. It got close with him having an active bloodline keeper again and then I drew thundermaw to seal it.

Round 2 vs Human Reanimator (Brandon)

Game 1 I have double stromkirk and his humans can't do enough. He has a little lifegain from cathedral sanctier, but he can't assemble the combo and his fiend hunter gets searing speared. My draw was very aggressive. Game 2 he gains more life and has more removal, but again stromkirk gets out of hand and volcanic strength on an ash zealot goes the distance. We played the match more afterwards and he lost most of them as Travis and I saw when testing it. The deck is good, you just don't want to run into my deck.

Round 3 vs Naya Blitz (Adam)

I wasn't looking forward to this matchup at all. All his creatures outclass mine and he has an even lower curve than me. The one saving grace is he is removal light. Game 1 he has an aggressive draw of champion of the parish into double boros elite, burning tree emissary, domri rade, etc. My draw is also aggressive with ash zealots, reckoner, burn, and hellrider. We parry for a while playing very carefully. I then get into a situation that makes us both think hard. I'm at 16, and he's at 17. I swing in with hellrider, Reckoner, and zealot with the hellrider triggers hitting his domri at 2 counters so it dies and can't molest me more. I have boros charm and spear in hand but had to tap out for hellrider. I should have just played more defensively. He takes the damage, I pass turn, he plays silverblade paladin and deals exactly lethal.

Game 2 I have a good hand and am able to get 4 guys on the board. I burn out most of his guys with mortars, pillar, and spears and he can't catch up. Game 3 he mulls to 5 and I mull to 6 (2 ash zealots and 4 lands). My hope is that I draw into burn and thundermaw. I draw some burn + Reckoner and am the aggressor, but he O-rings my Reckoner and fiend hunters one ash zealot leaving me drawing into lands and him following up with paladin, emissary, and the land that lets him give +2/+0 and vigilance. My heart is racing and my hopes of a box sinking but he is low in life as I drew a hellrider and he was only at 5 life. Just before it looks like I might lose unless I draw an out, sure enough I draw a volcanic strength, suit up the hellrider, and that's all she wrote folks.

I split with Clint who's a new young kid riding back to back good finishes with his own RDW. He's not splashing but he runs only 20 lands with emissary and a lot of auras. We both wanted to go home early so we didn't play any games but were both pretty happy with 23 packs each.