Playing Pack Rat

[John Galli]

Cheapppy ftw! One thing I'd suggest is removing the typhoids for something else.

Was testing a less budget version today-

3 Ghost Quarter
21 Swamp

4 Pack Rat
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
4 Veilborn Ghoul

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Devour Flesh
4 Sign in Blood
3 Cremate
3 Tragic Slip
2 Murder

Sideboard
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Mutilate (or Vampire Nighthawk)
3 Underworld Connections
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dead Weight
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Cremate
1 Tragic Slip

[JediCheese]

A playset of Geralf's Messenger is only another $10 on MTGO. Liliana of the Veil is $40 a pop and I'm not quite committed to MTGO enough to spend $160 on virtual cards...

[John Galli]

yeah i understand that, basically why Travis and I both booed MTGO.

I've been testing this new version a lot, it's totally bonkers. It's actually really competitive and veilborn ghoul is just insane with rat and lily. He's also just good against control by being a continually reappearing creature.

[JediCheese]

I would assume that Veilborn Ghoul is only moderately good because he costs 5 and is chumpable? Or is the fact he's able to be discarded to the Rat and then returned via land drop really that good?

[Travis Lannoye]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Veilborn Ghoul is probably at its best when paired with either Pack Rat or Liliana.

Underworld Connections is another card that I think needs to see more play in a list like this. Being able to continuously feed Pack Rats and Lilianas for one more life is pretty sick.

[John Galli]

I've been testing the list a lot, mostly the "competitive" iterations with lilianas, etc. I've also been testing a R/B version with Dreadbore.

The biggest problem cards are ones that Travis and I identified pretty early, thankfully most of the semi-answer cards are ones that hit a lot of cards or are good against the field.

Those problem cards are-

Lingering Souls, Supreme Verdict, Planeswalkers, Detention Sphere, Rakdos Return.

Before going and saying that these are all major cards and therefore they make the deck not playable if they're a problem, think about how many decks these cards cause a problem for and then deal with that and try to think about how to get around it. Of the few things I do know, I know they're are answers, and I know that the G/B deck that I loosely based this deck off of originally was able to do well. These cards also haven't been back breakers as at the end of the day the Pack Rat deck is a control deck and battles just like they do.

I've seen 3-6 cards that have fluctuated around in my build, either going in or out of the maindeck based on the above-

- Mutilate (you want it in most matchups, but a lot of times a 4 mana mass removal spell also isn't what you're looking for. It's really hard to pin down what # of these I want. It certainly helps to have a board wipe, especially with lingering souls lurking. Remember, I'm already playing Curse of Death's Hold in the board which comes in against many of these matchups. One really nice thing is that Mutilate is often a one-sided wrath when you have messengers and demons out)

- Duress / Appetite for Brains (both of these have been situationally good. Duress gets 1/2 a lingering souls (cremate gets the other half), it gets D-sphere, Supreme Verdict, Planeswalkers, Searing Spears, pillars, etc. Appetite gets planeswalkers, verdict, thragtusk, olivia, huntmaster, sire of insanity, etc. The original G/B list ran both, and he ran both sideboard)

- the 2/3 drop removal spot (I'm pretty sure that running x4 Devour Flesh is correct, that card has been what I want almost 100% of the time and any time I've tested a build with only x3 of them I've always regretted not having another. That said, the deck might want more 2 drop removal. The R/B list I was running ran x3 dreadbore as well instead of murder and some other cards. Murder has been really nice to have, especially at instant speed though, it was mostly for space considerations that I couldn't fit both)

- # of creatures (the original "Competitive" list I had featured x4 pack rat, x4 geralf's messenger, x4 demon, x4 veilborn ghoul. This allowed for a fairly light amount of removal and discard, making it tough to assess what was right. I've been taking creatures out slowly as I was playtesting but I can't tell if the results are improving or not)

Some Pros:

A few things I know are really good in this list - Liliana is awesome, she's an auto include if you can get the cards. Veilborn Ghoul might be able to be chumped but he just keeps coming back and for 70% of the decks out there he causes serious problems either being pitched to lily, pitched to a pack rat, or continually attacking. He's a 4/1 so he can put in some damage too when he needs to. This card I think really has strengthened the deck and it also makes Pat Rack a lot better than he was before. Obviously, the G/B list with Thragtusk and no Pack Rat is probably making better decisions, but who wants to play that when they can have Pack Rat

Underworld Connections is very good, but I'll repeat it is just not a card you want in the aggro match and there's very little squeezing room in this deck. There's a reason it's in the board. I tested both x2 and x3 in the board against control and x2 seems right. I got 2 out in multiple situations and there is such a thing as too much phyrexian arena even if it is conditional. Staff of Nin was good for me at FNM against control, I could see that being a supplement. You're right though Travis, anything to fuel the Rat and Lily are nice.

I would love for this to become Gilded Drake 2.0. I need your guys help testing if it's gonna get there though. I have some doubts but I've also had some really successful testing sessions. I'm 50/50 on going to the PTQ this Sunday, but not sure if Mono Red or this list is ready. But it is in Madison so I feel guilty not going. . .

[Travis Lannoye]

@underworld Connections: I don't think having too many of these is a bad thing...you can just pitch the extra copies to Pack Rat/Liliana, and I'd rather increase my chances of drawing more cards. I still say run as many as you can.

@lingering Souls: Mutilate and Curse of Death's Hold seem like fine answers.

@rakdos's Return: This deck wants to be in top-deck mode already, so I don't see the problem with this card. In theory, Pack Rat (2cc) and Liliana (3cc) are both cheap enough to come down before a Return can get us.

@supreme Verdict: Answers Pack Rat but not Liliana. This is why I was considering a white splash for Unburial Rites...it would give you more ways to keep a Pack Rat on the table. You could also play your own Lingering Souls if you added white. Souls can even be pitched to Pack Rat/Liliana and still get value out of it. Another option might be to go the route of Blood Artist. With so many Rats on the table, adding Blood Artist would make it hurt that much more to wrath.

@detention Sphere: Answers one threat, but only one. Gotta make sure that there's multiple types of threats to deal with.

Maybe try something like this:

4 Pack Rat
4 Veilborn Ghoul

4 Underworld Connections
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Sign in Blood
3 Devour Flesh
3 Tragic Slip
4 Lingering Souls
3 Unburial Rites
3 Mutilate

4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains (in case you need to GQ for it)
13 Swamp

[John Galli]

@underworld Connections - True, you can pitch it, but that's assuming you have a lily or pack rat on the table to pitch it to. Drawing cards is fairly good, but there's a ratio of life loss to value where it sometimes isn't the greatest. I'm not saying running 3 of them is terrible, from testing I just found it to be not ideal and it doesn't sound like you've done a lot of testing with this deck, more just theorizing.

@rakdos Return - the main issue here is that they can kill pack rat with many cards in their deck early, and they have dreadbore and other answers to liliana. You really don't want them to hit you with a turn 5/6 rakdos return to get rid of your desecration demons or other guys that you might have been sandbagging as you play out pack rat and lily early. You also may have to be using removal on their guys as Jund plays some significant threats. Sire of Insanity is similar to Return in that respect. I would disagree that this is a topdeck deck. It usually puts your opponent in topdeck mode with all the abuseable discard, so that you have an advantage. There are games where you're just digging with connections but otherwise I strongly disagree.

@d-Sphere - my main concern was that it gets pack rat and all the tokens. . . (which has happened to me already)

@white list-

The addition of lingering souls is cool, and white also lets you run O-Ring, but I'm not feeling unburial rites just to combat supreme verdict. You're creature count is absurdly low, and x4 of those creatures return on their own. Having 3 unburial rites to return pack rat seems absurd to me. Also part of the power of the rare list is the power/pressure of the other threats; Demon - which I'd absolutely never cut, and Messenger, who's verdict proof to begin with.

[Travis Lannoye]

@underworld: You're right that I haven't tested this much. My theory is that Underworld has value with or without a Pack Rat/Liliana. When you have one or both in play, you use it to make sure that you have cards in hand to pitch to Pack Rat or Liliana. When you have neither one in play, it can serve as another way to find one or the other.

@unburial: I've never actually tried the list before, so I have no idea how many Rites are correct (maybe it's just two since we don't have that many creatures). The point of the white splash was to make both Supreme Verdict and Rakdos' Return worse for the opponent. Both Souls and Rites accomplish that, and both can also be pitched to Pack Rat/Liliana.

@messenger: I assume that you're using him as wrath-protection and as a way to give the deck some reach. That being said, I think that the white splash does a better job of accomplishing both of those things.

@demon: I don't dislike him, but I think with even just a pair of Unburial Rites, we could shave a couple copies of him from the list. I think more often than not, I would only need one on the table. Against the extreme aggro matchups, you could board into more of them because you don't have to play around wraths as much, so it's fine to have multiples.

Based on my first list, maybe +2 Demon, -1 Underworld, -1 Rites in the main, and add the other 2 Demons to the board?

[John Galli]

Yeah I guess I'm on the disagreement train on this one. Feel free to test out your build and see how you like it though

[John Galli]

Choo Choo

[JediCheese]

I'm planning on playing the shit out of this deck this weekend on MTGO because likely I'm going to play this at states. I feel this deck has potential and is about to break out.

I'm interested in the G/B list. Is there a decklist for that deck?

[Travis Lannoye]

May 7, 2013 14:31:34 GMT -5 John Galli said:

Yeah I guess I'm on the disagreement train on this one. Feel free to test out your build and see how you like it though

Yeah, that's the problem: I don't think I'm going to have time to do any testing in the near future, so all I can do for now is theorize.

EDIT: After looking at my schedule, I *think* I might be able to test on Thursday or on Saturday. Tonight is bowling, tomorrow is date night, and Friday is volleyball.

I can understand adding more Demons and less Connections, but I still think Souls/Rites are better against Verdicts/Returns than Messengers. Plus, adding Rites allows for more pseudo-copies of Pack Rat and Demon, even after your hand is empty.

Maybe this?

4 Pack Rat
3 Desecration Demon
4 Veilborn Ghoul
(11)

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Underworld Connections
(6)

3 Tragic Slip
3 Devour Flesh
4 Sign in Blood
4 Lingering Souls
3 Mutilate
2 Unburial Rites
(19)

4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
15 Swamp
(24)

[John Galli]

I agree Chris. I'm close, I know that for sure. The original list is superior, and that's a reason it won a premiere and got third at the ptq below (same player, same weekend). But, pack rat is fun and my changes aren't that bad to afford the fun.

www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5352353

@ Travis - like I said man feel free to test when you have time. Demon is the best card in the deck and I'd have 7 on the table if I could, never cutting a copy of that card ever. I've putt in the testing time, at least 30-40 matches so far between the mono black and b/r builds. I like lingering souls but this isn't about to become a rites deck for me at least and I don't think the creature count you're advising is enough to make the value worth it. I also don't need it. The deck isn't as soft to the stuff your suggesting as you think it is. I've done a lot of testing now against various UW builds.

Also is there any chance I could use some of your cards for the ptq? I know you have those lily's and br lands (maybe dreadbore?) but if they're tied up or you dont feel like loaning I understand

[John Galli]

Travis, just to please you-