R/W Stax AKA THE CRUCIFIXION

[John Galli]

Ok, so Travis and I have cluttered the playtesting thread so I figured I'd give this deck it's own post. Afterall, I've settled on it for Madison's PTQ.

Right now on the MTG Salvation thread I've been following, there have been two builds developing. One is slightly more aggressive, while the other is control/tempo based. I'm curious to see if you guys can weigh in your thoughts. I like a bit of both builds, and will probably form my own slightly modified one, but at the same time they share different directions ultimately.

BUILD 1: Aggressive, Mike Ryan's-

Creatures
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Aven Mindcensor
2x Yosei, the Morning Star

Permanents
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ajani Vengeant
1x Chandra Nalaar
4x Chrome Mox
3x Boros Signet

Spells
4x Boom // Bust
3x Path to Exile
1x Razia's Purification
2x Volcanic Fallout

Lands
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Arid Mesa
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Dread Statuary
2x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Godless Shrine

Sideboard
2x Volcanic Fallout
4x Damping Matrix
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Terminate
3x Hide // Seek

BUILD 2: Control - War Monks'-

1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Dread Statuary
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Godless Shrine

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 World Queller
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Scepter of Dominance
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Boros Signet
2 Wildfire
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Chandra Nalaar

SB
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Path to Exile
2 Defense Grid
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Extirpate
2 Wrath of God
2 Damping Matrix

Furthermore, the whole thread has been calling this deck "Vengeant Stax" but smokestack is not even legal anymore, even if this deck is trying to accomplish the same thing. So we should really think up of an original name if I'm going to play this business. I was thinking "The Crucifixion"

Lastly, I ordered the rest of the cards I needed tonight on card kingdom. Traivs, I used my credit card so it would have been very difficult for me to do a bulk order with you and Card Kingdom tends to be pricier on most stuff so I figured you'd probably have some qualms anyways. I got all my cards for reasonable prices, but it just happened that way. I also only got 2 damping matrixes as they were running low (and everyone else but star city was sold out), so hopefully that'll be enough, otherwise I might buy 1 or 2 more from Bach depending on how my sideboard ends up.

I still need two Defensive Grids and possibly one Horizon Canopy if anyone has these. Let me know, thanks - John

[Travis Lannoye]

I have the Defense Grids, and I should have at least one Damping Matrix.

[matth]

Got the Horizon Canopy, just need to fish it out of my EDH deck.

To be honest, I can't wrap my head around the differences between the decks unless I play them out. I mean, the Control deck looks like it has more spot removal, while the Aggro just has more critters.
Also, maybe I'm just not "getting" the deck, but some of the cards in the Aggro deck seem to have very narrow purposes, like Aven Mindcensor and Boom//Bust compared to Scepter and Wildfire. Of course, if you expect Scapeshift and DDT, then those might be better choices anyway, as they also have some use against other decks.
What's the purpose of Fallout? I can't come up with a situation that's good against.

Finally, I reformatted the decks to show the differences better:

Control

4 Lightning Helix
3 Scepter of Dominance
2 Wildfire
3 World Queller

4 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra Nalaar
2 Path to Exile
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Boros Signet
4 Chrome Mox

4 Arid Mesa
2 Dread Statuary
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge

Aggro

4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Boom // Bust
1 Razia's Purification
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Yosei, the Morning Star

3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Chandra Nalaar
3 Path to Exile
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

3 Boros Signet
4 Chrome Mox

3 Arid Mesa
2 Dread Statuary
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge

[John Galli]

The main differences are mindcensor over helix, more ghost quarters and flagstones and boom // busts, etc.

The Mindcensor is nice against fetches with zoo (especially since it has flash), but ultimately its there against the non zoo decks. I agree though that it probably should be a sideboard card, and thus the reason why there's the two different directions these lists have gone.

Fallout is a terrible choice IMO too, and I let him know about that. His friend clarified that the reason he put it in was because blossom-tokens equipped with Jittes were getting really annoying for him in playtesting, but fallout is a bad answer to this. So yeah, it's definitely a card I won't be running.

The Boom // Bust + Ghost Quarter + Flagstones x4 act as an early LD plan against all decks. Against Zoo you can isolate key lands to make Nacatl and Loam Lion smaller, and later in the game crucible + bust is pretty out of control, let alone in the early game. I might want to borrow that 4th flagstones if I see you again before the PTQ.

My ultimate list will have some different choices from these two gentlemen. I have a few cards I want to play that they're not running, and I like a bit of both lists, including queller and scepter.

[John Galli]

Here's a build I was tossing ideas around with. It abandons the crucible / ajani route, but it in turn has more of an all-in approach to the first turn or two where your likely to drop an early suppression field, boom // bust, or trinisphere.

Creatures (11):
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Reveillark
2 World Queller
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Enchantments (11):
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts (8):
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere

Sorceries (4):
4 Boom // Bust

Instants (4):
4 Lightning Helix

Lands (22):
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Dread Statuary
3 Plains
2 Mountain

I could also see Chalice of the Void potentially working into this list (chalice for 1 does nothing to you and would stop a hefty amount of zoo creatures)

[Travis Lannoye]

Both Chalice and Engineered Explosives sound like they would fit nicely in here.

Suppression Field seems like a good card to add to the hateful core of Trinisphere and Ghostly Prison. It shuts off a lot of useful abilities and doesn't really hamper you all that much.

I think Duregar Hedge-Mage belongs in the board...he is a little too narrow for the main-deck. I would probably replace him with either Chalice or Explosives. Furthermore, I think the Reveillark package is a little too greedy. You only have 7 possible targets (3 Magus, 2 Hedge-Mage, and 2 SSG), so the odds of you being able to maximize the potential of your Larks is not good.

I saw this article on StarCity the other day, and although it's mono-white, the concept is similar to what you are doing. Maybe you could get some ideas from it: www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/18808_Positive_EV_Extended_Hurterator.html

[John Galli]

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have Chalice or Explosives and they both cost a bullion. I vaguely remember you saying you had 2 Chalices, although I'm sure you or Pat already have dibs on them and ideally if I ran Chalice it'd probably be good to run 4.

I could see pulling the Hedge Mage, although I'd want to have some form of artifact hate in the maindeck. Not sure really what would fit here.

Reveillark could be pulled too, probably in favor of a third world queller and something else. . .

Another idea I had was some form of planeswalker control. This would be quite different from the lists you see above, but might share some similarities like Ajani and Ghostly Prison. I've always felt Extended has it's "nose open" and one of those areas is Planeswalkers. There isn't a lot of hate out there for them, and some decks can't deal with them at all. The problem is in a deck like that you don't get to run suppression field which is such a hot card against fetch lands, thopter-depths, etc etc.

And yeah I saw Bucher's German decklist, but the article following it didn't give me much reason to play it heh. Definitely wrapped around some of the ideas tho

Oh - what if I splashed blue (the mana's easy to do) and played 4 Ancestral Vision?

[Travis Lannoye]

Yeah, Chalice and Explosives are quite hard to come by. That's why I made sure to grab them when I could get them.

I think if I had to choose between hate cards like Suppression Field, Trinisphere, and Ghostly Prison vs. a Planeswalker package, I'd go with the hate cards. Planeswalkers are pretty slow, and vulnerable.

[John Galli]

Ok this is my one last salvo at trying to figure things out. Here are basically all the cards under consideration (a mix mash of the token, boat brew, and prison lists). I need to formulate something tonight. If I can I'll try to drop by Misty tonight as well. Help!

ONE DROPS:

Figure of Destiny
Chrome Mox
Silence
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Condemn
Soul Warden
Goblin Bushwhacker

TWO DROPS:

Lightning Helix
Suppression Field
Talismans
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Knight of the White Orchid
Boom // Bust
Umezawa's Jitte
Join the Ranks

THREE DROPS:

Ghostly Prison
Fulminator Mage
Magus of the Moon
Duergar Hedge-Mage
Crucible of Worlds
Scepter of Dominance
Aven Mindcensor
Oblivion Ring
Simian Spirit Guide
Trinisphere
Spectral Procession

FOUR DROPS:

Ajani Vengeant
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Wrath of God
Magus of the Tabernacle
Ranger of Eos

FIVE DROPS:

World Queller
Chandra Nalaar
Siege-Gang Commander
Reveillark
Conqueror's Pledge


There are a few six drops worth consideration, but extended's a pretty fast format and ultimately they will rarely see play. Thus, I haven't included them.

There has to be something worthwhile that can come out of this. I feel like most of the 5-cost cards or 3-cost cards seem to define the decks, with the rest of the cards following suit. I have just a few goals-

1. The deck must beat zoo.
2. The deck must beat thopter.

Beyond that I really don't care. The boat brew build has traditionally been pretty decent against zoo, the prison/suppression build good against thopter. I need a combo of this somehow or a sideboard strengthening.

SIDEBOARD CONSIDERATIONS-

Defense Grid
Damping Matrix
Kataki, War's Wage
Pithing Needle
Relic of Progenitus
Duergar Hedge-Mage
Shattering Spree
Smash to Smithereens
Wrath of God
Ethersworn Canonist
Magus of the Moon
Extripate
Thoughtseize
Hide // Seek
Volcanic Fallout

[John Galli]

I’m going to test the following out tonight (extremely similar to my old boat brew, with the main differences being Aven Mindcensor over Fulminator, O-Ring over Mogg Fanatic, and sideboard adjustments like Hide // Seek which deals with the thopter foundry faster than most solutions). I think this will still be solid against zoo like last year, and it will be more competitive against thopter-depths with the o-rings and hide // seek. I really didn’t like how ghost quarter was playing out, as Travis you made the point that they can just play hexmage first if they have it. Plus, taking out quarter ends up smoothing out my own mana base. I might still run flagstones, not sure yet tho. Also, there’s fallout in the board to provide additional pressure against fae.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Creatures (16)
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Reveillark
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ranger of Eos

Spells (20)

3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
2 Umezawa’s Jitte (trying to figure out a replacement, although nice on fliers)

Lands (24)

4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Rugged Prarie
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Plains
2 Mountain

Sideboard
4x Hide // Seek
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Jotun Grunt or Relic
2x Volcanic Fallout
1x Wrath of God
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender

I’m also still considering Perimeter Captain, especially with Ranger of Eos. His only drawback is that he doesn’t do anything against thopter.

Or Forbidding Watchtower?

[Travis Lannoye]

Perimeter Captain is WAAAY better than Forbidding Watchtower, because he's a Ranger target, and he gains life. If the Watchtower blocks and then gets Bolted, you're down a land, and the Watchtower takes two mana to activate, so the earliest you could use it would be turn 3. I'd rather have Ghitu Encampment or Dread Statuary or a basic Plains than Forbidding Watchtower.

I think Jotun Grunt is probably better than Relic, because it will only hit their yard (not yours).

[John Galli]

Yeah but you can control Relic (unless you blow it), vs. the uncontrollability of Grunt. But Grunt's pretty decent, and could even come in against zoo possibly (as a big dude and one that makes goyf smaller).

I was looking back over the Honolulu season, and I noticed that the boat brew deck I originally based it off of actually made TWO top 8 appearances. It got 1st in the big 200+ man PTQ that I got the list from, and it got 6th in a very small PTQ in Hawaii.

The original list ran Mogg Fanatic, and while he's not so good with M10, do you think he's still worth running or is O-Ring better? And is Aven Mindcensor just better than Fulminator? (seems so since Mindcensor stops land fetching but I dono).

[Travis Lannoye]

Hmm...Fulminator is better at killing lands, and a second or third Fulminator is always good (a second or third Mindcensor doesn't really add much). Mindcensor also stops Scapeshift and all the tutors in Thopter Depths, and it even protects you against Extirpate (they can only search through the top 4 cards of your library...remember that).

Do you have access to Grove of the Burnwillows? If so, you could run the Punishing/Grove combo instead of O-Ring or Mogg Fanatic.

[Travis Lannoye]

forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=222137

[Zach]

Hokai, so like I said, I had a Naya idea with Ghostly Prison and Kazuul. After a while (and looking at these lists) I decided to just stick with Boros. I kinda like my version.

4 Silence
4 Path
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring (Maybe Elspeth at some point)
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
2 Baneslayer Angel

4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Dread Statuary
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Mountain
6 Plains

Thoughts?