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Post by John Galli on Mar 24, 2011 18:08:44 GMT -5
This build just took 7th place in the online PTQ. I like the kitchen finks change, not sure about scepter of dominance though.-
Maindeck:
Artifacts 3 Mortarpod 4 Scepter of Dominance
Artifact Creatures 4 Pilgrim's Eye
Creatures 4 Flickerwisp 2 Kitchen Finks 4 Sun Titan 4 Wall of Omens
Enchantments 4 Oblivion Ring
Instants 4 Path to Exile
Sorceries 3 Day of Judgment
Basic Lands 16 Plains
Lands 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 4 Tectonic Edge
Sideboard: 2 Kitchen Finks 3 War Priest of Thune 3 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Luminarch Ascension 3 Condemn 1 Day of Judgment
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Post by John Galli on Mar 25, 2011 10:45:14 GMT -5
Found the Seattle Dude's tourney report- www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/Flickerwisp_and_Friends-------------------------------------- Edit* I spoke with Travis already, but I ended up getting the following for next Saturday. Hopefully TrollandToad and Starcity deliver them on-time. I assume Pat and Travis had some of these cards, but since all 3 of us are likely playing the deck I decided it would be best just to get the list since most of the cards were inexpensive. If anyone has any white fetches they can loan out, I'd be appreciative.- 3 War Priest of Thune 3 Luminarch Ascension 1 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Condemn 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Kor Skyfisher 4 Scepter of Dominance 2 Glimmerpoint Stag 4 Lone Missionary 4 Kitchen Finks 4 Mortarpod 3 Oblivion Ring (already had 1) 3 Pilgrim's Eye (already had 1) 4 Sun Titan - Pre-Release Foil 3 Path to Exile - Gateway Foil (already had 1) 2 Tectonic Edge (already had 2) 1 Martial Coup 4 Flickerwisp 3 Day of Judgment (already had 1) 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin (already have x4 wall of omens) I got cards to cover both builds because the scepter of dominance was $0.35 a piece, so it was worth grabbing just incase it seems good. I went with Leyline of Sancitity over Runed Halo because it seems more versatile after thinking about it some and I'll probably run x4 in the board which would give me a good chance of seeing it in my opening hand. Runed Halo was also in high demand, all they had left was 4 japanese ones on starcity and none on troll and toad.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 25, 2011 18:12:35 GMT -5
In play testing it, I like the lone missionary in the main. You get 4 life at once which you can bounce and play again for another 4, or you can flickerwisp it for another 4, etc. Obviously there are some REALLY good things to be said about kitchen finks, but in terms of life gain, lone missionary is better. I think personally I'd want kitchen finks in the side as it is harder to sack to mortarpod to get it in the grave and harder to play it out and then bounce the kitchen finks. It seems to me that kitchen finks' added support verse something like red deck or jund would be excellent.
If I can make it I will be splashing red for a few ajani vengeants for sure, and possibly some red sun's zenith for fireball rfg removal. (seems a good plan verse the mirror and other aggro decks, good verse control even too) If I can't make it someone else can use the cards if they want to.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 26, 2011 9:02:21 GMT -5
That was a really fun EDH and playtesting session last night, glad all you guys could make it. The white deck does seem very competitive and it's made even better by the fact that it's a joy to play.
I think I did about 2-3 games against fae, 3-4 against grixis control, and 5-6 against elves last night. I would say the fae matchup was a lot more favorable then I thought, probably somewhat due to the fact that none of us are good at playing fae but the white deck definitely seemed like it could keep pace and you pretty much know when they have counterspell magic up because if they don't they're usually attacking with creeping tar pit. So as long as I didn't tap out for Sun Titan (unless they were tapped out), I could play my other spells and win the attrition battles.
Grixis Control and Elves both seemed about 60-40 in favor of the white deck. The Grixis games went fairly long as both sides have a fair amount of attrition, but they have so few threats that you generally are able to handle them with ease due to the amount of removal the white deck has. The one game I remember losing to Ryan was when we were probably 20-30 turns into the game and eventually his cruel ultimatum'd inferno titan (recurred) got there. I was pretty even with him the whole time, even after the cruel it wouldn't have been the end of the world but my life count was too low to stabilize. The nighthawks were certainly a bother, as when you don't draw removal spells or have day of judgement + 3 of your own guys in play it's not always an easy to deal with threat. That said, O'Ring seemed to cover my bases well enough and I know the board could help out against just about all of these matchups.
Elves basically boiled down to if you get day of judgement by turn 4 or 5, with the exception being a nutty hand that would allow the elf player to refil, and even then they usually don't have enough steam to get through your lifegain, walls, and further removal. Path to Exile seemed still "OK" against them in the early game and Travis made the right call about playing it during their turn unless they have an active heritage druid or something. I'd say the most annoying card elves has is Ezuri, as he regenerates elves when there is a day of judgment and he is also a kill condition with his built in overrun. Joraga Warcaller looks scary sometimes when it comes down, but if you have any kind of flickerwisp type of guy it's quite laughable. I wanted Mortarpod to be better in this matchup, but the amount of crusade effects that elves runs make it a little frustrating. That said, Mortarpod is still strong here, as you can get rid of the crusaders and you can ping early threats, It's just a shame you can't get it to do more than 1 damage without some heavy blinking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Card Thoughts so far:
Lone Missionary - Really liked him, and mostly agree with Pat's thoughts on this. I think Kitchen Finks is really good and that the 3 power / persist will be relevant, but I also think the instant 4 life versus 2 life does make a difference. I'd know that having both of them is probably wrong, but I really would need to playtest more to see which one seems better. Kitchen Finks also survives your own day of judgements, and that is another selling point for him. His 3cc versus the Lone Missionary's 2cc is a problem though; The two drops in this deck just feel appropriate and I liked having a little extra defense besides wall of omens.
Glimmerpoint Stag - Travis and I discussed this for a while, and I think all 3 of us (Pat included) probably feel that he is optional. As the games went on, I liked it almost everytime I drew one though, he's a relatively good body to attack with and the vigilance is relevant. I also think that it is important to have a certain number of blink effects, and I worry that just running x4 flickerwisp might be a little weak. Some might balk at his 4cc, but tbh it fills a spot in the curve that's really only occupied by Day of Judgement, so I wasn't mad at it. This one is going to take some more time for me before I decide whether to cut him or not. The other unfortunate aspect is that he's probably one of the few cards that could be cut without hurting the deck.
Kor Skyfisher - Other than it having flying, I really didn't like having this card in my hand. There are obviously fun targets to bounce, but I feel this sets you back a lot farther than a blink. I felt assisted when I played flickerwisp, I felt set back when I played Skyfisher. I think this card needs to get cut.
Oust - Instant - "Put target creature into it's owner's library, second from the top. It's controller gains 3 life." - I suggested this as a possible sideboard alongside of condemn to Travis. Oust actually seems pretty decent against elves, RDW, or sword based decks. It's also just as effective against Mistbind Clique as path to exile. The thing I really like about it over condemn is that you can play it on a guy whenever, not just when they attack. There's a lot of pissofff creatures in the meta that you just want off the table who never are going to attack.
Lapse of Certainty - I'm not nearly as high on this card as Oust, but it could be a big surprise out of the board. It's usually better in a weenie deck though and it's cc is high, so I don't know if it would be competitive enough.
Leonin Relic-Warder - Obviously we didn't play boarded games last night, but I kept thinking about this guy and war priest of thune when certain situations came up. In the majority of them, Leonin seemed like he would be much better. Sword isn't "great" against you, but it is still a good card and usually relevant to get rid of. Decks like Mystic, elves, and fae also have very limited creature removal, so his likelihood of dying isn't as high as it otherwise would be. Even if he does, the time he's bought you of not having their stuff on the board is probably enough. I think War Priest is still really good against bitterblossom and prismatic omen, but my sideboard will probably be a 2-2 split or a 1 war priest and 2 leonin split.
Journey to Nowhere - before you cry that it's too narrow, hear me out. Oblivion Ring seemed RIDICULOUS in all of my games, and the ability to recur it made it even more so. I think out of the 10-15 games I probably had it disenchanted once. There might be more hate out of the sideboard of some of these decks, but to be honest it seemed so good that I wouldn't mind having a 5th and 6th oring even if it was just for creatures. On top of that, Journey to Nowhere occupies the 2cc spot, something which is on the light side in this deck, especially if kor skyfisher goes out. I don't necessarily like this card as a replacement for skyfisher, but if there was some other way to work it in while keeping the creature count high, I'm not mad at it. Again, another tough call, but possibly worth consideration.
Ajani Vengeant - Pat I never got to see how this worked out for you and I know you didn't get a lot of games in where you saw it cast, but when you mentioned it as I walked in I immediately liked the idea. Aside from not being recurrable, Ajani seems like it combines just about everything you could want for this deck. It locks down permanents, it gains you life while killing creatures or players, and it can end a game once you have a smidge of control. I don't know what would be the right number (2-3? all 4?) but I definitely see it as an easy shoe-in if you decide that splashing red is fine. Oh, and blinking Ajani seems pretty sweet.
Red Sun's Zenith - I like the RFG but I just can't see this card being useful enough. It's probably an all-star in the naya-vengevine matchup, and fine in others, but it requires a decent amount of mana and you're never guaranteed to draw it soon after it's shuffled back in once. This deck is also fairly mana intensive, I rarely found myself in positions where I wouldn't want to use my lands for a creature or something else. It's also a sorcery, another knock against it's usefulness. If I'm splashing red to play removal like this, I'd much prefer magma spray which can rfg creeping tar pits, stoneforge mystic, vengevine after blocks, cheap mana accelerators, hellspark elemental, etc. And magma spray only costs one red mana, a much easier investment.
Revoke Existence - I've seen a few sideboards running this, do you guys know if there are any enchantments or artifacts that would be worth popping this in for?
Crystal Ball - Possible? adds some draw power to the deck.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Issues:
Planeswalkers and the Mirror:
I noticed it was a bit scary when an Elspeth landed and the one retort in my hand was an O-Ring. Had I not had O-Ring, I could have seen that Elspeth being really difficult. Or had my opponent had a counter / disenchant, same situation. Is this something we should be worried about? There are a few U/W control decks running around that have 8-10 planeswalkers onboard, I'm just hoping that one of them doesn't steam roll us when we're stuck with a bunch of DOJs in hand.
I think this deck's caught on a little and it's cheap to build so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw possibly 1 round where we play the mirror. I'm wondering if it's worth it to throw in a 1-2 card sideboard slot for it, something along the lines of relic of progenitus to pick off graveyard cards or a creature that could get through a standstill. Better to have the tech than not to I would think. Not to mention that graveyard hate or whatever creature would go in would probably be good against other decks (RDW, etc)
We should proxy up Valakut at some point too, I am very curious how game 1 is, I'm assuming it's probably awful for us. I don't think game 2 looks much better either and due to it's popularity I'm thinking maybe 6 sideboard slots is worth it (x4 leyline and maybe x2 runed halo or x2 of something else). Tectonic Edge will certainly be awesome, and this could be an area where scepter of dominance shines, so who knows (in the early landlock sense).
Lastly, landcount - do people like 23 or 24?
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Post by Zach on Mar 26, 2011 9:46:23 GMT -5
Oust is actually really solid. Sure, it doesn't get rid of a problem immediately, but say they have 4 caws out or something stupid along those lines, if you oust one, then cast day, followed by a bunch of threats, you crush. The fact that you put the card second from top is probably the key here. Sure they get one chance to draw what they need, but if they're on the clock, you definitely kill one of their turns by ousting some stupid dork.
Red Splash: I actually REALLY like this idea. Ajani Vengeant is still really good, and he's a really great control card. Then you can add some better removal spells as well.
Revoke Existence: Bitterblossom. Nuff said.
Most of your other suggestions are kinda meh... Journey to Nowhere isn't good. Remember you have Path again. Lone Missionary Vs. K-Finks... I think you go with Finks, he has more defensive abilities, and once he's persisted you can blink it with one of your other creatures.
Lands: I'd say 24, because from what it sounds like to me, you're kindof playing the control matchup. And control without enough land is a bad, bad situation
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Post by John Galli on Mar 26, 2011 10:13:28 GMT -5
Here's the standard deck that the original pilot based his list off of- 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 19 Plains 23 lands 2 Iona, Shield of Emeria 3 Kor Cartographer 4 Kor Skyfisher 3 Lone Missionary 4 Pilgrim's Eye 4 Wall of Omens 20 creatures 4 Day of Judgment 3 Everflowing Chalice 2 Martial Coup 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Path to Exile 17 other spells Sideboard 4 Devout Lightcaster 4 Kor Firewalker 4 Luminarch Ascension 3 Pithing Needle Also, some cards I was thinking about for the deck and an early pseudo sideboard- Dispense Justice Oust Journey to Nowhere Crystal Ball Arrow Volley Trap World Queller Blazing Torch Knight of the White Orchid Divinity of Pride Unmake Plumeveil Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Luminarch Ascension 2 Lone Missionary 2 War Priest of Thune 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 Condemn 1 Oust 1 Mortapod Here's a monster article on extended by Mike Flores, including our deck- www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/135What about this for a decklist (revised)- 11 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats 4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Sun Titan 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Day of Judgment 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Mortarpod 3 Lone Missionary 2 Glimmerpoint Stag Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Luminarch Ascension (or scepter of dominace?) 2 War Priest of Thune 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 Condemn 1 Oust 1 Journey to Nowhere (added protection against summoning trap emrakul) 1 Pithing Needle 1 Lone Missionary Still iffy on the luminarchs, will depend on how it goes in playtesting and what might be better.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 26, 2011 10:38:11 GMT -5
There's a card I wanted to point out that could be pretty good for the deck and it would accomplish much the same as the journey to nowhere but would be recurrable and permanently rfg a creature.
Weight of conscience -- enchantment-- white and a colorless so it's recurrable, prevents enchanted creature from attacking, later game you can tap two creatures that shard a creature type and exile the enchanted creature.
The obivious flaw with the card for this deck is that we don't have a ton of creatures that share creature types, so we'd need a duplicate of something to get it active, it also doesn't shut down activated abilities (but preferrably this is what O-ring, Day and path are for). But late game this would seem almost creul.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 26, 2011 14:09:33 GMT -5
I like the ability to exile a creature but I feel like the fact that it basically makes the guy a wall is just too limited. The double creature type is probably doable, I had doubles of at least one creature on the table almost every game. I picked up a few cards locally today as possibilities for the sideboard, and one card in particular grew on me the more and more I thought about it. In fact, it's so good right now, that it might even go maindeck as a 1-of and 1 in the board. We all know this card, it's Pithing NeedleFirst off, it's a great answer to planeswalkers, and after looking at a lot of the top decks, we'll definitely see some gideons, some jaces, and some elspeths. Usually, you'll want more than just O-Ring here. Secondly, there's a whole host of other hot cards that it combats; Swords of F&F, Creeping Tar Pit, Mana Birds, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, Figure of Destiny, Collar-Sparkmage, All of the Elf Champions, Mutavault, etc. It just seems very good as a 1 to 2 of and I know I saw it in at least one mono-white's sideboard.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 26, 2011 17:24:43 GMT -5
I got my schedule and won't be able to make sunday. I work friday through sunday. So if anyone is interested in playing (Ryan? anyone else?) I have the large majority of the deck prepared and ready to go.
I'm missing main deck
3 flickerwisp (cheap) 4 pilgrims eye (cheap) 3 emeria sky ruin (about 3 dollars)
2 arid mesa---- You can swap the marsh flat in there for an arid mesa with someone else and the terramorphic in there needs to become a fetch as well. Worst case scenario you could simply put anothe plains/mountain in for the t-morphic.
Missing in sideboard 3-4 runed halo Apparently harder to find- about 3 dollars if you can find them (IMPORTANT SIDEBOARD CARD) 1 mortarpod (cheap) 1 lone missionary (cheap)
I have pretty much all the rest of the things worth considering in white
3 luminarch 2-3 jinxed idol (damage and sac outlet, consideration against non fae kinda of control only, much like luminarch) 4 leyline 2 leonine relic warder
pithing needle is a good option, there's also the artifact ceature guy that does it too if you can't find the needles, He's a bit worse though as it can be killed by removal whereas needle most likely will not be.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 26, 2011 17:58:01 GMT -5
On the note of elspeth, mortar pod kills any tokens she makes, just respond to her loyalty trigger to kill those. As long as you keep their creatures off the board she can't do anything. If she's approaching ult, blink her out to reset her then swing in to kill if it's available or blink a dude swing in for the kill. I was playing against Travis and the bant deck that he put together the other night and I saw elspeth several times and was fairly well able to work around her by controlling the creatures on the board with paths, orings, days, mortarpods and smart blocks.
The sky fishers I honestly found to be quite useful in conjunction with the flickerwisps. You can for example play a wall of omens bounce it play it then flickerwisp it for 3 cards that turn instead of two, (you can do it for more if you have titans/mortarpods/emerias online). You can do the same with the lone missionary for 12 life in a turn and possibly more. Having said that I do agree that that seems to be one of the weaker cards in the deck and certainly would agree with removing them if you found agood replacement. (I don't consider the glimmerpoint a real good replacement)
I think you probably are likely to run into a situation where you will need to have something that "busts through" You will for sure run into other aggro that may be able to stall you out as much as you stall them out if not running into the full mirror match. If you run into the mirror, there is a 1/1 guy that you can sac to remove a grave card as well as relic of progenitus. This is why I was thinking of the red splash for the red sun. Ajani's ultimate is also something I was thinking about against a mirror match (however in retrospect the blink effects on the other side would prevernt me from getting that off) This is also why I suggested the weight of conscience as in a stalling situation you could prevent their titan or other things from attacking and then RFG them then rinse wash and repeat. Also this could prevent the eldrazi gods from trampling over you too.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 27, 2011 11:27:54 GMT -5
ah shoot Pat that's a bummer you can't make it man, but I know first week of a job obviously ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Hopefully Ryan will reconsider and maybe one other person so we can get a crew for this. After ordering the deck, I'm definitely going to go no matter what but a roadie is assuredly preferred. Also Pat, I'm having folks over at my house from 3pm - 7:30/8pm to do EDH, Extended, and watch bball if you're interested.
Aaron, Ryan, other Ryans, I gotta believe we can get at least 1 or 2 of you onboard for this. Convention + PTQ = Winning
As for the cards, I definitely understand the ability to control a planeswalker with blinking, it just doesn't remove the issue right away and relies that you gain control later instead of slipping out of control. And as far Kor Skyfisher, the type of return and replay of cards with him requires a lot of mana and I feel like with this deck once you're at 6-7 mana you've probably won anyway or got a number of blinking effects going. I don't think he's terrible in this build as the skyfisher is certainly as usable as any other piece of the deck, but I do think there are other options. I might actually test x2 Runed Halo in the main and see what happens as it will be largely unexpected and add to the number of things my opponent is forced to disenchant.
More testing is definitely needed though, hopefully us folks can sneak some in today or one day this week. I won't be able to commit to much and I'm sure we'll all be busy but whatever we get in will for sure be a big help in better understanding each card's role.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 27, 2011 21:26:50 GMT -5
Revised list - 3/28/11
12 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Sun Titan 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Day of Judgment 4 Oblivion Ring 3 Mortarpod 2 Lone Missionary 2 Runed Halo 1 Idyllic Tutor
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Pithing Needle 2 Trip Noose 1 War Priest of Thune 1 Lone Missionary 1 Oversoul of Dusk 1 Archon of Justice 1 Mortarpod
*Edit - added a plains to the deck and took out a lone missionary, added a runed halo and moved one mortarpod to the board. Adjusted sideboard. Still very tentative.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 28, 2011 1:00:11 GMT -5
I still don't get the luminarchs. How does luminarch help in the mirror? They can blink it just as easily as you can. You'll never get the counters on it to use it. For that matter how does it really help in scapeshift? As long as you can't be targeted that works out fine, but they can disenchant and bounce typically. I feel like they should just be more runed halo and devote something else to the mirror. Runed Halo calling valakut means it doesn't hurt you at all. Trip noose seems ok if you're expecting a bunch of prowhite dudes. As for the mirror, the best thing I can think of is to kill their creatures when they are in the grave.
Thoughts
Wheel of Sun and Moon --- nullifies their graveyard and if you insist on the idyliic tutor, you could tutor it Kinsbale border guard --- possibly can out produce a mirror match in creatures if you sacrifice it and replay it a bunch Archon of justice --- would be exceptional against a mirror match (rfg emerias and titans when it dies and recur it to do it again, and has decent possibilities against other decks as well) They would most likely save their paths for your titans and then you'd slam them with this that would eat away at every thing else they had. Heap doll --- 1/1 sac this to rfg card in a graveyard in reponse to recursion, recurrable Weight of conscience--- would allow you to win the attrition war by systematically removing creatures from the game
Here's what I'm thinking Side Board and now that I've had a chance to see the halo in action i must say it seems a critical piece to have available.
4 leyline - seems rather obvious to me as a good inclusion 3 runed halo - Oust, although good, path, day, and oring are just better removal, if you need more early game, the halo's should work out quite well to prevent some attacks until you have one of the other cards. If you absolutely must kill something Oring, day and path are better than oust. 2 leonin - I think you want this as it hits both artifacts and enchantments, Especially with tempered steel being a top deck, between these guys, path and oring, that'd be 10 answers to artifact creatures 2 needle - I like this tech for walkers and other activated creatures 2 noose - anti pro white although halo works just as well in preventing their pro white dudes form hurting, still seems reasonable to have 6 answers available after side. 2 mirror match tech--- 2 archon or 2 weight of conscience or even (assuming idyllic is still in) 1 weight of conscience, 1 luminarch if you still must have a luminarch in there.
archon of justice - mirror match tech, sacrifice this, recur this and do it again, each time taking away an emeria or titan seems reasonable, The fact that it would be worthwhile against some other decks as well seems good.
Weight of conscience provide even more early game control followed by late game control through removing things from the game. I know you think it is narrow, but it is mainly about slowing the early game for non mirror match aggro, and taking control of the late game for all aggro including the mirror.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 9:27:30 GMT -5
Oust is definitely NOT an instant, so it is probably not as good as Path, Day, and O-Ring. Kor Skyfisher is definitely the one card I did not want to see in any of my testing matchups. Unlike a blink effect, it doesn't let you re-buy anything for free...it just sets you back a step, which is not what this deck needs. Revoke Existence = poo. It's sorcery-slow and doesn't come back with our recursion engines. If you want to kill a turn-two Blossom, you can use either War Priest of Thune or Leonin Relic-Warder. Either one is much better. Trip Noose: No. SHIT no. I reckon you'd get yer ass kicked sayin' somethin' like that. I actually went to Gatherer and did a search for Extended-legal pro-white creatures and found a total of six. Black Knight, Brave the Elements, and Goblin Outlander probably won't be played by anyone. Malakir Bloodwitch is slow enough that we can save a Wrath for it. Phyrexian Crusader isn't really played in anything that I know of, and Stillmoon Cavalier is a one-toughness Mortarpod target. So, I don't think we need to be Trippin' any Nooses. Weight of Conscience: More yuck. If you really want to turn things into walls, you can pay one mana for a Guard Duty. Still, it's far better to just kill the creature outright. Pithing Needle: Seems like a very versatile card, but what does it really handle that we can't already handle? Planeswalkers can be O-Ringed, blinked, Mortarpod-ed, or just attacked with all our flyers. Man-lands can be hit with one of our four Tectonic Edges. Scepter of Dominance: I'll have to actually play with this card to determine if it's worth it. On paper, it seems like it just delays the inevitable, which might be what we want. Not sure what we would cut for it, but it's definitely worth trying. I think this deck wants to go to 24 lands. Despite all the Walls and Pilgrim's Eyes, we really need to make sure we get to a minimum of six lands for Sun Titan, and eight lands for Emeria. We have enough fetches and things to ensure that we won't get too flooded. One other card we could try to run as a 1 or 2-of is Expedition Map, just to give us a greater chance of hitting Emeria. It happens to be a Sun Titan target as well (albeit a crappy one). A note on combatting the new Swords: Despite being the hot new card to play right now, I don't see it being a huge problem for this deck. We have plenty of fodder to discard if it ever connects, and we have lots of removal spells to handle the creature that tries to equip it. We even have a ton of chump-blockers to get in the way so that it doesn't connect. @the sideboard: - Leyline of Sanctity is awesome. There is nothing quite like a turn 0 Leyline to really set some people back. It totally blanks discard spells, both Vendilion and Mistbind Cliques, big Jace's +2 ability, Cruel Ultimatum, Valakut, and who knows what else. It's good enough that GerryT from StarCityGames used to run several copies in the main deck of his Wargate Valakut build a few weeks ago. While I don't necessarily advocate running Leylines in the main deck of our list (they aren't recurrable), we should definitely have four of them in our boards. - Runed Halo also seems quite good, possibly good enough to main-deck a couple. I could see this thing hosing some other specific threats like Valakut, Demigod of Revenge, burn spells, or whatever else may come up. I would not be opposed to 2-3 of these in the board. - Leonin Relic-Warder. Anyone who has read anything about the latest constructed metagame knows that Sword of Feast and Famine is the hottest new card out there right now. Our best options to deal with Swords are the Relic-Warder, Kor Sanctifiers, and Divine Offering. Divine Offering is decent because it's an instant and gains us life, but it doesn't synergize with blinks or come back wtih Emeria/Sun Titan. The kicker on Kor Sanctifiers only works when it is cast, so that won't work, and that leaves us with the Relic-Warder, an O-Ring for artifacts AND enchantments that perfectly compliments our blinks and Sun Titans and Emerias. 2-4 of these guys in our list of 75 (main or board) seems good. - I agree with Pat that Luminarch Ascension seems kinda weak right now. I just don't see a matchup where it would be that good. - Honorable mention goes out to Devout Lightcaster, Kor Firewalker, Kor Cartographer, War Priest of Thune.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 9:30:40 GMT -5
I guess I didn't explain my sideboard, which probably should have been done. Let me go through it, and then we can see about other options. This is all of course "pseudo" at this point-
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Luminarch Ascension 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Pithing Needle 2 Trip Noose 1 Oust 1 War Priest of Thune 1 Lone Missionary
4 Leyline of Sanctity - This is fairly obvious as a great card, I see almost every version of our deck running x3 and I just don't like that. Sure, it takes up room when it comes in, but I want to give myself the absolute best possible chance of having it in the opening hand. Getting this in your opener against discard spells, red burn, and later game stuff like Valakut is just awesome. It works well against so many decks, that it's probably the best side card IMO.
Luminarch Ascension - I made a mistake mentioning the mirror, Pat you are correct about the blinking. I did however take a look over many of the top Scapeshift builds and did some goldfishing with a proxied deck, and they actually don't tend to run lightning bolt. In fact, they lack direct damage, instead ramping heavily, playing prismatic omen, and then scapeshifting when they see fit. Thus, Luminarch will get active almost everytime and will provide a clock for them, something which this deck has a hard time doing otherwise. In the goldfish games, I didn't seem to have enough threats to get in for lots of damage until I got to sun titan, and if they have any way of dealing with titan the incremental damage you're doing with the other guys is just awful slow against a combo deck. I still really am not liking the card, but it provides some form of support against that matchup. That said, I don't see a lot of other matchups where it's viable unless you get "lucky", so if someone presents a better solution I'm all for it. Scapeshift also runs no enchantment removal maindeck.
Leonin Relic-Warder - I agree on your thoughts and it's pretty much the reason I have 2 of him in here. I think he's far too slow to handle a tempered steel deck, but that doesn't mean he's not good as a supporting card.
Pithing Needle - Already discussed.
Trip Noose - This is actually in there against Emrakul. Several of the last top 8s have all included a G/W Summoning Trap Deck, and simply looking at the contents of that deck it is really something we have no way of stopping. Yes, we have O-Ring, but they're likely to cast summoning trap during our end-step, so having a trip noose out ensures you can tap it down during their turn so you do not get annihilated. 2 might not be the right number on this, that will depend on testing or thoughts given.
Oust - This is actually functioning as a 5th path to exile against decks like elves and RDW. It buys time, and it can remove creatures that will never attack into a condemn like Heritage Druid, etc. It's also decent against Vengevine or anything else that has haste and wouldn't be able to be O-Ringed right away. Oust plays a different role than day of judgement; Day is often too slow in many games against elves, especially if they're on the play, and sometimes you just need that buying of time in addition to eliminating key creatures of theirs. Like for instance getting rid of Ezuri and then casting DOJ.
War Priest of Thune - This guy kills bitterblossom and prismatic omen, two of the most deadly cards in the format. He's pretty much in here for that, to add support to leonin and provide a permanent removal outlet. His number may fluctuate though, especially if more artifact hate is needed. TBH, I'd love to find a 1 or 2 drop guy that could get either artifact or enchantment, even if he has to be sacrificed to do it (something like pridemage).
Lone Missionary - I've pretty much decided that I love this guy a lot more than Kitchen Finks as the amount of lifegain is incredibly relevant. He's such a beast against aggro decks, he puts you high enough that it makes scapeshift work harder, and bouncing / killing him only helps you. I think it might be important to have x4 of him in the RDW matchup too, if that deck is still viable anymore. Considering all the folks that usually play red, I'm sure it'll be seen.
Of the options you mentioned Pat, I'm not terribly keen on them but there are a few interesting considerations. Here's my thoughts-
Wheel of Sun and Moon - perfectly good mirror card, not sure if it's worth a sideboard slot though. I could see it as a possible 1-of if you're running idyllic tutor. I likely won't play it unless I expect enough decks that it will work against.
Kinsbale Border Gaurd - seems slow and overcosted for this deck and you're not able to capitalize much on his first ability until very far into the game. I just think there is better cards then him including what's already in the deck.
Archon of Justice - This is the one suggestion that I actually would consider a great deal. I was thinking about Archon yesterday, but his 5cc was certainly derailing a lot of the positive. That said, he's a finisher, he's got great utility with mortapod and your recursion, and his 5cc might be a bonus where he sits on the curve if you play him and sac him right before a Sun Titan. He also has flying which is something not to be ignored since Kor Skyfisher seems to be a ditched card. The more and more I think about him, the more there is to like aside from him being a higher casting cost to play. I could see him as a 1-of.
Heap Doll - There has to be better than this. I totally understand all the benefits you mentioned, but it's sooo narrow.
Appreciate the suggestions Pat, keep em coming. I know you're not making the tournament but you always bring a lot of fresh ideas to the table and this deck still doesn't seem to have it's 75 set in stone. I'm waffling on about 5-8 slots, and the brief playtesting done so far hasn't seemed to help out the process.
Also guys, any thoughts on removing Pilgrim's Eye and putting in 3-4 skyfishers (and just bouncing wall of omens a bunch to get similar land draw?). Maybe even put in 2-3 Kabira Crossroads?
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