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Post by crazedferret on Mar 29, 2011 1:06:56 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, the decks that give scapeshift trouble are the ones that are hyper aggressive (boros type and tempered steel kinds of aggressive) and super controllish (fae). First, I'd pray you run into more of these kind of decks in the room as that should wreck scapeshifts day and your deck has better matchups verse the other kinds of decks. Second student and or figure of destiny actually might be worth a shot as they'd fit the hyper aggressive category.
Other thoughts I had to combat them
ethersworn canonist --- forces them to play one piece of the combo at a time, giving you time between pieces --- somewhat gets in the way of what you're doing safe passage --- fall back plan if they manage to bounce or destroy all the enchantments you put out, Would save you the 72 damage or so they can deal with the scapeshift the white card that denies them the ability to play spells for one mana? similar to ethersworn in that it'd disallow them from playing both at the same time, also could help disrupt their early mana plan. Shinewend --- similar to dispeller's capsule, sits around waiting to be used, waiting for an omen to kill Demystify --- 1 man instant speed enchantment destruction, wait for a scapeshift then kill the omen in response ratchet bomb left at 2? similar to shinewend and dispellers capsule in that it'd sit waiting for a prismatic omen, but it would help verse elves and other fast decks as well, could potentially be main decked as it could help out significantly verse any quick aggro and even help out verse fae tokens.
Other than redoing the main to include some particularly aggressive guys, the only other options I can think of for you are to overdo it for the sideboard. Neither seem like a great answer but.... What exactly are the main hurdles for this deck? I think it is mainly scapeshift followed by g/w trap into eldrazi gods, and then fae, with a touch of fast weenie decks. I think between the orings, days, mortarpods, paths and all the little dudes that we happily trade, the focus should be on the first three of these primarily.
If you ran ratchet bomb in the main, you'd have suitable targets to hit in all of these especially at the 0-2 drop. Bitterblossom, prismatic omen, lotus cobra, geopede, fauna shaman, many boros criters, many elves and goblins, birds of paradise and noble hierarchs, basilisk collar, fae tokens, for example. This would give you answers to the other swords as well at the 3 drop.
You'd lose nothing in your deck at the 0 spot save for a germ token that could be flung anyways, nothing at the one spot, wall of omens at the 2 spot, and mortarpod at the 2 spot. The 3 spot might be a bit trickier to use with the ratchet bomb as o-ring sits there. You'd most likely be using it at the 0-2 drop anyhow.
So with these thoughts in mind I'd personally think of running something more like
12 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Day of Judgment 3 Oblivion Ring 4 Mortarpod 4 Sun Titan 2 Lone Missionary 3 Ratchet bomb
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity - fae, scapeshift 3 Runed halo - scapeshift - Actually would not be a problem with ratchet bomb, as the bomb would be a fall back plan if they manage to take care of the halo and leyline. 1 ratchet bomb - quick aggro, fae and scapeshift (set at two) 4 Tumble Magnet - trap 1 lone missionary - further life gain verse quick aggro 2 archon - mirror
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Post by John Galli on Mar 29, 2011 8:31:48 GMT -5
I could see ratchet bomb being a consideration, although I think it falls into the same category as Runed Halo or O-Ring in that it can be bounced, and it's a bit slow compared to some of the other removal outlets you have. I don't think it's terrible here, but I'm not sure if I'm sold on it just quite yet.
I do like the suggestions of Safe Passage and Ethersworn Cannonist. Safe Passage reminds me of the days of Turbo Fog in Standard, which actually isn't a bad strategy and there's already elements of that in our deck. It would not only be a surprise card, but also workable against the majority of the field. I'd say probably the only decks I wouldn't like to see safe passage against would be Fae and G/W Trap, and even in those matchups it's usable. This is probably a very worthy consideration for the deck.
Ethersworn Cannonist was used heavily in extended last season to combat Elves and Combo and I think people forgot about it. It's not so great against R/G scapeshift because they run bolt and volcanic fallout, but I think you have slightly more time against those builds anyways and it's still a threat if they can't kill it right away. Against the U/R/G versions it appears to be quite strong. The current versions of elves seem completely neutered by this though, so I'm almost positive that this is for sure better than last breath. I could see this as a 2-3 of in the board. Our deck I think plays spells slower than any other, so it really doesn't effect us too much.
I don't really want to give up on Baneslayer, I think he's good in this deck. I also still like Glimmerpoint Stag, but having room for him might be tricky.
Also, what do people think about cutting x1 Emeria, x1 Fetch, and x1 tec edge (or maybe one or 2 of those). I feel like I want more plains in many games and while I love double active emeria they often force you to wait longer to get it online. Also, there seems like there's too many fetches in the deck dealing unnecessary damage and tec edge doesn't feel useful unless you have a direly mana screwed opponent and you're drawing hot or if your facing down a man-land in which case you probably don't need x4 tec edge.
Sample:
(having the x1 Baneslayer act as an extra finisher with Sun Titan.)-
Mono White Control (3/29/11)
13 Plains 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 3 Tectonic Edge 2 Marsh Flats 2 Arid Mesa
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Sun Titan 3 Day of Judgment 3 Safe Passage 3 Mortarpod 2 Lone Missionary 1 Baneslayer Angel
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Tumble Magnet 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Ethersworn Cannonist 1 Pithing Needle 1 Day of Judgement 1 Lone Missionary 1 Mortarpod
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 29, 2011 8:56:46 GMT -5
@the Boros matchup: I'd max out on Lone Missionarys and Kitchen Finks before I went for a Baneslayer Angel, because it's very possible that they would kill you before it got online. I'd even consider Perimeter Captain and Wall of Omens before I went for Baneslayer here.
@the Elves matchup: Ethersworn Canonist and Ratchet Bomb will certainly help, as will max-in out on Days. The question becomes how many Viridian Shamans/Corrupters they play, as both Canonist and Ratchet Bomb are artifacts. I'd put the Canonist in the front of the line, as they seem to run almost no removal.
@the Pyromancer Ascension matchup: This deck wins with either Lightning Bolt or Archive Trap. Both of those can be answered by multiple copies of Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity. Safe Passage is not the answer here...they combo off at instant speed and they can just work their Regress so that they can do it all over again once Safe Passage wears off. Pretty sure Ethersworn Canonist is not the way to go here, since they run at least four Bolts (and maybe some Burst Lightnings as well).
@the Scapeshift matchup: Seems like there are two possible ways to go here. Max-ing out on Leylines and Runed Halos might be OK, but if they run Back to Nature instead of Nature's Claim, then that would be a problem. Safe Passage would be a good answer to the Scapeshift, assuming that you had it on the turn that they cast Scapeshift, and they didn't have a counter for it.
Of course, all of this is just theory. I need some more specific testing to actually be sure one way or another. Are we going to get any more testing sessions in before the weekend?
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Post by John Galli on Mar 29, 2011 10:11:23 GMT -5
@ Boros - This deck doesn't seem to need to "max" out on lone missionaries or kitchen finks to defeat boros, and Baneslayer is a finisher against just about every deck in the field. The only matchup where I don't really like it is fae as they might have the chump blockers / heavy bounce and counter. Even then, you're still gaining life.
I think it serves a different role then the cards you mentioned. While it can swing you back in a boros match (they come out of the gate fast but you have enough to stall them until you play a baneslayer (at least in goldfishing) and then it takes you from say the 5-10 point life range to the 10-15 point life range sealing the deal for the rest of your spells), it's also relevant against scapeshift as a large attacker, and fairly good against any aggro deck. I could see Archon of Justice being ok here, but obviously not the same card.
@ Elves - I looked at the 8 most recent lists from major tournaments. 5 of 8 had no way to remove ethersworn cannonist in either the main OR the sideboard. 3 of 8 had x3 Deglamer in the board. WINNING.
@ Pyromancer's Ascension - It's fair that we look at the list, and we may not even ever see this deck as so far I've just seen this one list on the most recent extended daily. It's slightly different from the old standard version, but similar. (3/27/11)-
4 Cascade Bluffs 9 Island 6 Mountain 4 Scalding Tarn 23 lands
0 creatures
1 Banefire 4 Burst Lightning 4 Cryptic Command 3 Jace Beleren 1 Jace's Ingenuity 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Mana Leak 4 Ponder 4 Preordain 4 Pyromancer Ascension 4 Volcanic Fallout 37 other spells
Sideboard 2 Countryside Crusher 4 Flashfreeze 2 Inferno Titan 2 Smash to Smithereens 3 Tectonic Edge 2 Vendilion Clique
You're right, Safe passage isn't the answer here. It still works for the scapeshift match because they'll have to use their counters and bounce on runed halo or leyline, or they'll figure in game 1 that you don't have it. It's not fool proof, but it's the best option I can see at the moment. I think as far as Pyromancer's Ascension goes, it just looks beatable if you can force an O-Ring through or blink it. After sideboard I think the Leyline's will certainly help a lot.
@scapeshift - I haven't seen anyone using Back to Nature, do you know if anyone is? Nature's Claim seems to be the go-to card, and x3 seems to be the go-to number. The thing I like about Safe Passage in this match is that assuming you get to play it without it being countered, it almost certainly shuts them down (unless they have 2 scapeshifts in hand, and with x3 scape it's unlikely). It usually would buy you several turns giving you some time to kill them or draw into more Safe Passages. It's not that I'm in love with Safe Passage, but to me if you're running x3 or x4 maindeck it feels like the best maindeck option as opposed to Runed Halo which sits on the table waiting for them to cryptic bounce it and then cast scapeshift. Even though they can counter Safe passage, the U/R/G version will generally have to use cryptic in the main to bounce your O-Ring the turn before they go off (because it will be on Prismatic Omen). Safe passage also isn't dead against aggro, you can cast it on one of their big swing turns, maybe even turn 3, and then follow it up with Day of Judgement.
The problem though with scapeshift is that this still isn't the end-all-be-all answer. The U/G/R version runs either x2 or x4 mana leak and x4 Cryptic Command, both of which are capable of dealing with Safe Passage, Runed Halo, and/or Leyline. I'm imagining that a good scape player will also sit and wait out this white deck (now that it's been seen online a bit) and only counter / bounce when he's going for the win or if we play a Sun Titan / O-Ring. Other than that, our deck presents no major threats to him.
The R/G version is said to be more common due to it's lower cost and simplicity to play, although they can run out of gas easier. They lack the counters which would make safe passage an absolute HOUSE, but they have more burn to throw around (if that matters at all). I also don't know if the above claim about them being more common is all that accurate, as 2 U/R/G scape decks were in the Minnesota top 8, and it was a 1/1 split in the Fargo top 8. The Fargo R/G version had Primal Command, but still no real answer to Safe Passage. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, from my above list, I would consider the following changes acceptable at the moment if one were to lean one way or another-
- Cutting a plains to add a 4th DOJ (returning the landbase back to the original 23).
- Cutting a plains to add a 4th DOJ and cutting the Baneslayer to add a 4th Safe Passage or a 4th Mortarpod or a 3rd Lone Missionary (returning the landbase back to the original 23).
- Cutting a DOJ from the sideboard if you added one to the main to put in a third Ethersworn Cannonist. It's GG against Elves and also very good against Tempered Steel. They're only out is Turn 1 or 2 Thoughtseize. I saw one Elf list with x3 Thoughtseize in the board, but of course that's the board.
*For Instance*- Mono White Control
12 Plains 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 3 Tectonic Edge 2 Marsh Flats 2 Arid Mesa
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Sun Titan 4 Day of Judgment 4 Mortarpod 3 Safe Passage 2 Lone Missionary
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Tumble Magnet 3 Ethersworn Cannonist 3 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 Pithing Needle 1 Lone Missionary
Sorry one other thought-
Maybe Luminarch Ascension is there against U/R/G Scapeshift. It seems that they tend to run no burn, aside from the possible x4 bolt, and other than the usual suite of spells we talked about I could see a quick angel beating being a problem for them. Thoughts?
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 29, 2011 12:01:19 GMT -5
Thought it might be helpful to share this link: sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/season_summary.php?event=37It's a breakdown of all the decks that have played in the PTQs for this season. Couple things that I noticed right away: - Pyromancer Ascension isn't even on the list. - UW Mystic and Bant Mystic decks have made it to Top 8 of a PTQ 34 in the last month. - RG and UGr Scapeshift decks have made it about 20 times. - Fae made it 22 times. - Cruel/Grixis control made it 13 times. - Boros made it 12 times. - Elves made it 10 times. - RDW made it 9 times. - Tempered Steel made it 5 times. So, this tells me that Pyromancer's Ascension is probably not worth talking about, and that Fae/Mystic/Scapeshift decks are the three big dogs to focus on.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 29, 2011 12:10:41 GMT -5
While a good statistics sheet to look at, I'd be more interested in a list like that from the last 2-3 weeks. That data includes stuff from the beginning of the format which was some 3-4 months ago if not longer.
Pyromancer's Ascension hasn't been in a PTQ, as I mentioned that decklist came from a daily, but you're right in that I'm not giving it a whole lot of weight. Just bringing it up in discussion incase but I agree it's more important to focus on the big dogs.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 29, 2011 12:48:29 GMT -5
The numbers I posted were only from the last four weeks. I didn't bother looking at the whole tournament season (otherwise I'd have to include things like Jund...EWWWWWW!)
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 29, 2011 13:59:45 GMT -5
I located a set of runed halo's. If someone wants them I'm sure I can find sometime this week to drop them off. I am now only missing 3 emeria sky ruins for the deck.
Also I have a set of ratchet bombs if someone wanted to go that route.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 29, 2011 14:40:34 GMT -5
I'll probably use the Runed Halos and maybe the Ratchet Bombs as well. If you're coming to EDH on Thursday, bring them with you, otherwise I'll try to stop over and get them.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 29, 2011 14:47:00 GMT -5
That makes a lot more sense then. Judging from that, I'm thinking my list would be along the lines of-
Mono White Control
11 Plains 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 4 Tectonic Edge 2 Marsh Flats 2 Arid Mesa
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Sun Titan 4 Day of Judgment 4 Mortarpod 3 Safe Passage 2 Lone Missionary
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Tumble Magnet 2 Ethersworn Cannonist (possibly 3) 2 Luminarch Ascension 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 Pithing Needle 1 Lone Missionary
I have a playset of Runed Halos on the way, so I'm good as far as that goes. Any of you guys have a set of Safe Passages I could buy off you?
Btw, I can't make it to EDH on Thursday, I've got pre-existing plans. I'd like to try and playtest after work Friday, but I know a number of you will probably have plans.
Edit*
LOL, I just noticed that in the PTQ in Mobile Alabama (2/20/11) a guy won using a 100% standard version of Kuldultha Red. Pretty weaksauce version too. That must have been the easiest PTQ under the sun
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Post by John Galli on Mar 30, 2011 8:18:49 GMT -5
In discussing Trip Noose and Tumble Magnet against G/W Trap, I think we all forgot about Scepter of Dominance from earlier in this thread. That seems to actually work about as well as the other 2 and gives you more options like tapping down land.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 30, 2011 9:39:46 GMT -5
In discussing Trip Noose and Tumble Magnet against G/W Trap, I think we all forgot about Scepter of Dominance from earlier in this thread. That seems to actually work about as well as the other 2 and gives you more options like tapping down land. There are a few small differences. - Tumble Magnet and Trip Noose can both be activated on turn 3, whereas the Scepter requires three to cast and an extra one to activate, so it can't be used right away. - Tumble Magnet requires charge counters, so it might eventually run out of gas (although it can be Flicker'd to reset it). - Trip Noose can be cast a turn earlier, but it is also more expensive to activate and only hits creatures. - The Scepter is the only one of the three that can hit lands, but somehow I don't think that will be a problem, as the only "lands" we might want to tap down will probably be man-lands, and we can just tap them down once they are turned into "men". I'm still gonna go with Tumble Magnet in my board, with Scepter a close second and Trip Noose a VERY distant third.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 30, 2011 10:24:43 GMT -5
Well, those difference are obvious, but I still think Scepter is probably better because you'll still get into situations where simply tapping down lands will prevent your opponent from playing key spells. They might be land screwed and you're adding to that by tapping down a land (and possibly tec edging another).
Still, I agree that the 4 mana cost could be a problem. It didn't seem to be for the guy who got 2nd place at the one PTQ with our deck, but then again he ran x4 in the main. I also think the other two are still very reasonable and agree that Tumble Magnet is a close call with Scepter.
A few other thoughts-
* I noticed that my cards should be arriving today as they landed in Madison this morning. So if all goes right I will probably have the white deck for the weekend.
* I checked on the MTGO Dailies this morning and noticed that in the last two days a particular user has been having a lot of success with a newish Jund build. Being a former Jund player his build looks REALLY good, with x4 maindeck thoughtseize and a lot of removal. Probably something worth watching out for since Jund has still been floating around according to that deck database link. The sideboard we have will already help of course, with x4 Leyline of Sanctity, but Jund is Jund so ya never know.
*Considering G/W Trap is popular and successful, I'm wondering if we need any maindeck consideration for it. Our current maindecks don't seem to really have any answers for a quick summoning trap. Granted, we have mortarpod to shoot down early mana accelerators along with path to exile and o-ring, but we really have no way to stop trap into emrakul. We could of course just hedge our bets and put most of the maindeck towards dominating aggro, but I feel like it's kind of dumb to have poor game 1's against Trap and Scapeshift; two of the most popular decks in the format.
*Travis I haven't seen you post a decklist in a while, and even though all this is theory up until Saturday/Sunday, I'd be curious to see what you're thinking for your brew. Also, still haven't heard from ya on Saturday, my folks are wondering whether to expect us or not.
*One other thing, even though we haven't honed a list, we also haven't talked much about sideboarding numbers for each deck. While those will fluctuate we should probably start to get an idea of what to take out in certain matchups.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 30, 2011 10:50:42 GMT -5
Another consideration for the deck I forgot about- Galepowder MageAlso, I found the original source of the deck designer's report and the commentary below the article are well worth reading- forum.tcgplayer.com/entry.php?4189-Mortarpods-Mono-White-and-Metagaming.-Seattle-PTQ-1st-place-Denver-PTQ-21stSpecifically- Just out of curiosity, what about cutting Pilgrim's Eye and upping the land count by 1 or 2, then instead focusing on heavy life-gain / blinking. You'd have attackers who do more damage and more life to put you out of valakut range. Something for instance like this- PTQ List 3 Mono White Control 12 Plains 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 4 Tectonic Edge 2 Marsh Flats 2 Arid Mesa 4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Sun Titan 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Day of Judgment 4 Mortarpod 4 Kitchen Finks 2 Lone Missionary 2 Glimmerpoint Stag Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Tumble Magnet or Scepter of Dominance or Trip Noose 3 Ethersworn Cannonist 2 Luminarch Ascension 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 Pithing Needle * Found another forum where one of the deck designers is discussing the brew- demonictutor.ning.com/forum/topics/mono-w-control-seattle-ptq?commentId=3440403%3AComment%3A33673
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 30, 2011 11:47:45 GMT -5
@possible Jund decks: I think the printing of Sword of Feast and Famine/Mirran Crusader is going to make life quite difficult for the Jundies these days. Somehow I don't think we'll have to worry about it all that much. The numbers back this up...Jund only has one Top 8 finish in the last month.
@summoning Trap: Either Runed Halo or Tumble Magnet would solve the problem, and both are good enough to go in the main-deck. This is something that should probably be tested out. In theory, Runed Halo is probably going to be better against Scapeshifters, as they likely won't run any answers to it main-deck. Tumble Magnet is probably going to be better against Sword of Feast and Famine, as it will tap down whatever dude happens to pick up the Sword. I'm guessing that we are more likely to be facing a Sword than a Scapeshift (since both Fae and Mystic decks play Swords), so I'm leaning towards Tumble Magnets in the main and Leylines/Halos in the board.
My current list? Haven't had much time to make too many changes to it yet. Here's what I have (from memory):
12 Plains 4 white fetches (doesn't matter which one) 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin (24)
4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrim's Eye 4 Sun Titan 2 Lone Missionary 2 Glimmerpoint Stag (20)
4 Path to Exile 3 Mortarpod 4 Oblivion Ring 2 Tumble Magnet 3 Day of Judgment (16)
4 Leyline of Sanctity 1 Mortarpod 1 Day of Judgment 3 Runed Halo 2 Lone Missionary 3 Leonin Relic-Warder 1 of something else, maybe the fourth Relic-Warder or a third Tumble Magnet, can't remember.
If I were to start a tournament right now, I'd be comfortable playing this list. Then again, I haven't had much time for testing specific matchups lately, and I'd really like some more practice against Elves, Boros, and Scapeshift decks. I'm very confident in the Bant Mystic matchup, and I've played enough games against da Fae that I think I understand it well enough.
@sideboarding plans: More theories, but might as well. - vs. da FAE: +4 Leyline, +3 Relic-Warder, +1 Mortarpod, -4 Wall of Omens, -4 Oblivion Ring. This is tough, because I have no idea if the Fae players will leave in their Mistbinds and Vendilions against us. If they do, Leyline is that much better against them. Walls obviously do nothing against flying armies, and O-Rings are too slow. - vs. RG Scapeshift: +4 Leyline, +3 Halo, -4 Path, -3 Mortarpod. Need to max out on the cards that protect against Valakut damage. Path is bad because it helps their ramping even more. Mortarpods are out because the one damage is irrelevant against Prime Times. - vs. UGr Scapeshift: +4 Leyline, +3 Halo, -3 Day, -4 Wall. Again, trying to build up as many ways to shut off Valakut as possible. Days and Walls come out because they usually don't run creatures. - Side note on Scapeshift players: The statistics page shows that they generally favor Nature's Claim over Back to Nature. This allows them an easier answer to Blossoms, but it also makes it possible for us to drop as many layers of Valakut protection as we need. - vs. Boros: +2 Lone Missionary, +1 Day, +1 Mortarpod, -2 Stag, -2 Sun Titan. Gotta get faster here. Missionary adds four life and sucks up either a Bolt (3 more damage) or an attacker (potentially more damage). Stags and Sun Titans are too slow for this matchup. - vs. Elves: Same thing as Boros. - Side note against Elves and Boros: Not sure if Runed Halos are good or not. If they are, they should probably come in for O-Rings, which are likely too slow. - vs. Bant Stoneforge: +3 Relic-Warder, +1 Mortarpod, +1 of whatever the last board slot is (either Magnet or Relic-Warder), -3 Day, -2 I don't really care cuz this matchup is great for us. I know I want Relic-Warders and/or Magnets to take out Swords, and I know I want Mortarpods to take out Birds/Hierarchs (they run all 8), and I know that Day is the least exciting card in the list. Not sure what the last two should be, but in the games I played against this deck, I never felt like I needed much. - vs. U/W Mystic: +3 Relic-Warder, +1 whatever the last card is, -3 Day, -1 Sun Titan. They have a more stable mana-base, more counters, and are much less vulnerable to Days. Cutting a Sun Titan because something needed to go.
Also, I'm in for the Saturday part.
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