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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 10:30:22 GMT -5
I did not know there was an Emrakul deck out there. In that case, we best be Trippin, yo.
Archons of Justice are always a hot play, from all the times I've cast and re-cast them in my Teneb deck, to that time back in Minnesota when Brad Nelson boarded them in against your Jundies.
I think we should test some games against Tempered Steel in the near future. I don't have any personal experience against that deck, and I have a feeling that we'll see some of it.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 28, 2011 10:44:01 GMT -5
@travis
Unfortunately I agree with john on the trip noose, it's a jank card but it does play an important role in combating eot emrakul or other eldrazi god. That would be something difficult for this deck to handle and there isn't any cheaper/better ways to handle it during their turn.
What's wrong with turning an aggressive decks beaters into walls? Turn a geopede for example into a wall and then what are they going to do? That's right not attack with said geo-wall. To me weight of conscience is a definite take control card and would allow you to take over in a mirror match. Their titans become walls---- they don't attack and trigger. Then you can remove them and reset the enchantment and then you have a repeated swords to plow shares. I'm interested in it mainly for the repeated rfg effect which will happen late game and certainly will happen in a mirror match as that game will in all likelihood go to time.
At this point the needle, may be redundant, but the deck should have certain redundancies maxed especially after sideboard to ensure that you hit what you need.
Expedition seems somewhat unneccessary as at that point in the game there is a good likelihood that you will have drawn into one and early you don't want to be playing the map to get land, you want to be playing dudes to draw cards blink stuff and find lands.
@john
Oust as travis said is not an instant which makes it pretty poor as a 5th path. And why would you reset a hastey dude back on top of his deck? I understand it more in the elves matchup, but am pretty sure it is unnecessary. Again I'm going to suggest this although both of you aren't keen on it--- weight of conscience. Turn it into a wall then kill it later---it's good at eliminating this kind of annoying creature and allows you to keep your paths for the more important creatures like knight of reliquary or fauna shaman. Those with activated abilities. This could also help nullify eldrazi gods as well. They can't attack so can't annihilate and it will provide you a chance to remove it from the game allowing possibilities of decking once again if it came down to it.
Leonin will only help the tempered steel matchup as it will act as a wall while removing a different threat from the board. Thus giving you a turn or two to get something to combat the rest of the dudes played. And you can switch his target via blinking as well if there is something else that demands attention. I'd say it is a very good support character.
I like pilgrim's eye better than the alternative suggestion. This ensures that you have two different creatures to draw you cards instead of one. You wouldn't be relying so much on the wall for your card draw. You also don't want to play the skyfisher as a three drop as you will be taking a decent blocker off the field (assuming you don't have a flickerwisp instead). You pretty much will be looking at the skyfishers as a 4-5 drop so that you can play out whatever you bounced again. I think cutting it is probably more prefered than this plan. Although personally I'd like 1-2 in there.
Archon and those other suggestions were mainly for the mirror as ways to take control of that match-up. Most of those suggestions would be for late game as I envision horrendously long mirror matches. Having that edge would take control of the game instead of trying to beat through their army.
I understand the luminarchs for that matchup now, but personally I'd feel better about the valakut matchup if runed halo's came in alongside leyline, because that redundancy should more or less lock the game for you. They take out your leyline, than scapeshift anyways and you're dead, but if you leyline turn zero followed by halo turn two, I think you're pretty well set. And with that locked away luminarch can rape face.
If only we could access green via a white-green fetch, then we would have access to cards like pridemage.
Cards we all seem to agree on (the 3 of us) 4 Leyline 2 leonin
somewhat agreed on (by 2 of us)
2-3 runed halo 2 needle 1-2 luminarch (agree now about the valakut match, but still don't like the card, I wonder if it works similar in the faeries match-up? Someone should test that.) 2 trip noose
I almost want to see a second idyllic tutor in there somewhere with the number of sideboard enchantments that are pretty critical to play out. And this would allow you to get to the luminarchs or halo or leyline in the scapeshift match.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 11:28:11 GMT -5
I think the last part of your post Pat is pretty accurate, I'm a little confused some other parts.
- I think we all agree on trip noose, Travis was basically nodding in agreement after he saw that there is an Emrakul deck. Speaking of Emrakul, Weight of Conscience doesn't work on him.
- I wasn't saying Leonin is a bad card against Tempered Steel, quite the opposite actually. What I was saying was that on paper the Tempered Steel deck looks absurdly fast, I'm guessing it kills turn 3-4 on a regular basis. So while Leonin is good against them, I think there needs to be something else if we can find it.
- I've been staring at Oust all weekend and for some reason I kept reading "Instant" where it clearly says "Sorcery". My oops on that one, it makes it far less viable for what I was putting it in for although still an option. It really is just there for elves, to slow them down and disable key creatures, but I suppose there are other options I just don't see them at the moment. I'm open to suggestions. I'm basically looking for something that's one or two mana, preferably an instant, and lacking conditions similar to condemn.
- I agree on the points for Pilgrim's Eye, it's mainly why it's still in my build. Just curious how to get more value out of Skyfisher, but your point about him essentially being a 4 or 5 drop is right on the money.
- You actually might be right about runed halo being just strictly better to have in board against valakut then luminarch, the one difference being that luminarch provides a finisher that you desperately need here. I still hate the card here, and would love to find something else or cut it to a 1-of.
- I think we all like Archon of Justice. I could definitely see it played and probably need to pick up a second copy.
- I'm just not sold on Weight of Conscience because I don't feel it does what I want and I think it's narrow with respect to activated abilities. I'd much rather have prison term as it shuts down activated abilities and can be moved based on your opponents decisions, and I still don't even want that. I'm sure that Weight of Conscience is an option, but I'm just gonna pass on it for my build unless I see it being abused to great effect.
- I have no qualms with a second idyllic tutor, although I hate how the card essentially sucks up a turn unless it's later in the game. That said, it gives you access to a lot. It's really too bad enlightened tutor is not available, it's so much stronger here.
- The two things I'm really looking for right now for this deck are -
: Late game finishers : early answers to tempered steel
I could possibly see the latter being solved by a fourth mortarpod, although that's not a stone-cold answer. That said, I love mortarpod in this deck and running 4 is no sweat off my back.
Just some outside the box thinking-
Steel Hellkite? Purity? Oversoul of Dusk?
Also, I like the new guy's addition of Greater Auramancy. Just wish it wasn't another card I have to pickup if I want to run it.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 12:43:08 GMT -5
Revised list - 3/28/11
12 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Sun Titan 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Day of Judgment 4 Oblivion Ring 3 Mortarpod 2 Lone Missionary 2 Runed Halo 1 Idyllic Tutor
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Pithing Needle 2 Trip Noose 1 War Priest of Thune 1 Lone Missionary 1 Oversoul of Dusk 1 Archon of Justice 1 Mortarpod
*Edit - added a plains to the deck and took out a lone missionary, added a runed halo and moved one mortarpod to the board. Adjusted sideboard. Still very tentative.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 28, 2011 13:57:38 GMT -5
Early game ideas
Please for my sake someone test the wieght of conscience idea in an aggro/mirror match. I'll let it drop after that. I'm pretty sure it's better than it looks on paper in aggro matches. Could be especially good if squadron hawks were involved, but I feel that'd be a different deck. I was thinking of this like journey in mentioning emrakul, I realize the error.
Also tumble magnet seems better than trip noose. You can blink it to get the counters back and there is no extra mana cost to activate it. It would be active turn three, the same as trip noose, plus it hits artifacts too, but I can't think of any that need tapping aside from mana artifacts.
goldmeadow harrier? taps down dudes, one mana 1/1 that taps creatures for 1
last breath? although somewhat limited, would be good early game
dispeller's capsule for artifacts and enchantments?
Arrest? for 3 though, not great but would disable a creature completely
moonglove extract -- artifact that sacs for a shock, 3 mana recurrable
There is not much else that would be good that I can find aside from the already mentioned condemn, journey to nowhere and non instant oust
finishers
White sun's zenith? It is an instant and you could get a ton of 2/2's late game. Ajani goldmane? not sure this would be worthwhile because of the blink effects. Your guys wouldn't maintain the +1/1 tokens well is what I mean. Baneslayer? although seems weak nowadays Oversoul of dusk- pro blue black red, would prefer prowhite though Waves of aggression, multiple attacks a turn? discarding a land isn't a big deal if you have a titan on board with the attack, you'd get multiple attacks a turn World Queller? can get people to sacrifice other annoying permanents such as walkers, another sacrifice outlet for your things so you can recur them, he'd be recurrable too admonition angel? keeping with the blink theme, you can blink out lands with flickerwisp to make sure it hits a land drop and titan obivously can recur a fetch for double land drop or just a single and a failure to find if you run out of basic lands. You could blink your team with him and attach the mortarpod to sac him during the opponnents turn and cause all sorts of shenanegans as well. Deathless angel? indestructibility for your team, doesn't seem necessary though True conviction? doublstrike lifelink, would make flickerwisps deadly thoughtweft gambit? tap their team swing in for win? or can be used as a stalling spell to the same effect twilight shephard? big persist dude that works well with the mortarpod as you can replay everything that you fling, or you could day of judgement and have a ton of stuff in hand after wards, as well as a shephard on board. Felidar sovereign? just outright win a mirro match by going for life gain whispersilk cloack? unblockable untargetable, doesn't seem quite as worthwhile as extra beaters moltentail masticore? don't pay the upkeep if you don't want to and be able to recur later, exile off unneccessary creatures in the grave - seems hard to fully abuse though in this deck, as you don't want to exile most of your creatures in the grave eldrazi monument? argentum armor? would be for late game obviously steel hellkite? platinum angel? they can't win iona shield of emeria verse mirror, although if they have any sort of flickerwisp or oring in the grave it won't be worthwhile blight steel colossus?
Other in my opinion weaker ideas
trail blazer boots-- nonbasic land walk, there's better decimator web-- try to kill them 3 different ways at the same time, kinda slow keening stone-- try for a millage win, prevalence of things that shuffle graveyard into library I think makes this pretty weak platinum emperion- this turns off the missionary
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 28, 2011 14:01:21 GMT -5
John I like that maindeck, looks solid to me.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 15:12:25 GMT -5
Tumble Magnet...now there's a card I can get behind. It solves the Emrakul problem, synergizes with our blinkers and Sun Titans, doesn't cost a thing to activate it. Score one for Pat!
Archon of Justice probably belongs in the board...I'm thinking 1-3 copies depending on the number of good matchups. It's not a Sun Titan target, so hopefully that isn't an issue.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 15:26:45 GMT -5
Ah the creative juices are flowing. Definitely some cards here I think are worth giving attention. Tumble Magnet and Goldmeadow Harrier I think are both probably an upgrade to Trip Noose as you mentioned. I think Tumble Magnet is probably the best option, and I would say that honor should belong to Goldmeadow Harrier except that G/W Trap sideboards in Path to Exile. That said, I still really like Goldmeadow Harrier, and it might even be a worthy maindeck card. It's pretty hawt at 1 mana to play and 1 mana to activate. Of course decks with burn will laugh at it, but other decks may have issues. Not sure here what's best though. Last Breath seems to accomplish what I want in a "5th" path to exile. I don't like that it's 2 mana instead of 1, but it's still a reasonable consideration and strictly better than oust for what I'm trying to do. I also like that it RFGs. Dispeller's Capsule seems about the same as Leonin, and Leonin just seems better with the blink effects you have and Emeria. Sure, he doesn't remove the card permanently, but he's a time buyer if anything and would usually come in against decks that don't have many outs to him. Still, scapeshift could always bounce him before they go off, my one worry there (if he comes in against scapeshift at all. Arrest is just worse than Prison Term in this deck. I think Baneslayer Angel, Oversoul, Archon, and Gideon all are relevant end-gamers. I like Baneslayer the most, but the cost of purchase for both him and Gideon make acquiring him unlikely. That said, he's straight awesome in this deck. You almost always have the time to play him and you have so many things that the opponent has to deal with that I could see him coming down and ending the game almost every single time. Or they path / go for the throat him, and then you drop Sun Titan. If I have the dough or feel like stretching, I might try to pick him up. Oversoul is also a decent finisher much in the same vein, although certainly stoppable. Gideon's at a bad point on the curve, and too expensive to buy, and Archon is FINE but not game ending right away (despite his obvious synergies). The reason I like Baneslayer so much too is that his role here is not like it was in extended zoo. That was a far faster format, he was shoved into a lower casting cost deck that won on the back of speed, and people were playing more answers. Right now he could be an unexpected powerhouse and this mono white control deck is all about taking it's time and establishing the end game. Thus, changes I think so far I like and probably will go towards- Sideboard -2 Trip Noose +2 Tumble Magnet -1 Oust +1 Last Breath Maindeck +2-3 Baneslayer -2-3 ? *Edit* - I'm thinking I could cut at x1 Runed Halo since I have the idyllic tutor and O-Ring can get prismatic Omen. Then I'd just have to figure out 1 more cut to get 2 Baneslayers main. What about this, with the Idyllic Tutor acting as the 4th O-ring and 2nd Runed Halo. Also alternatively, maybe 3x Sun Titan and 3x Baneslayer, or x4 O-ring with x3 day of judgement - moving 1 to the board. Mono-White Control12 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats 4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 4 Day of Judgment 3 Oblivion Ring 3 Mortarpod 3 Sun Titan 3 Baneslayer Angel 2 Lone Missionary 1 Runed Halo 1 Idyllic Tutor Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Pithing Needle 2 Tumble Magnet 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Lone Missionary 1 Mortarpod 1 Last Breath
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 16:00:42 GMT -5
I have a set of Baneslayers, including the one that I accidentally clipped with a scissors (fail). None of them are currently in use.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 16:11:05 GMT -5
Do you think you'd be using them in your build?
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 16:21:36 GMT -5
Probably not, unless testing with them proves to be worthwhile. I've got a soft spot for Sun Titan and Emeria, so I'm gonna try my best to stick with them as much as possible. Tumble Magnet is very appealing to me, so that is going to solve any potential Emrakul problems. Archon of Justice also seems really neat, not sure where I'd want it though.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 16:42:28 GMT -5
Just looked at a few of the MTGO dailies, people are taking it in some different directions-
4-0 (3/20/11)
4 Celestial Colonnade 3 Glacial Fortress 3 Island 1 Marsh Flats 2 Mutavault 4 Mystic Gate 3 Plains 1 Scalding Tarn 4 Seachrome Coast 2 Tectonic Edge 27 lands
1 Baneslayer Angel 3 Kitchen Finks 2 Mirran Crusader 2 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Sun Titan 2 Vendilion Clique 2 Wall of Omens 14 creatures
4 Cryptic Command 3 Day of Judgment 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Mana Leak 2 Path to Exile 1 Sword of Body and Mind 1 Sword of Feast and Famine 19 other spells
Sideboard 1 Baneslayer Angel 1 Day of Judgment 1 Dispeller's Capsule 1 Gideon Jura 1 Kitchen Finks 1 Mirran Crusader 2 Path to Exile 1 Ratchet Bomb 2 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Wall of Omens 2 War Priest of Thune
3-1 (3/20/11) 4 Arcane Sanctum 4 Creeping Tar Pit 3 Darkslick Shores 1 Marsh Flats 4 Mystic Gate 1 Plains 2 Reflecting Pool 4 Seachrome Coast 1 Swamp 2 Tectonic Edge 26 lands
2 Mirran Crusader 1 Sun Titan 2 Vendilion Clique 3 Wall of Omens 8 creatures
4 Cryptic Command 3 Day of Judgment 3 Esper Charm 1 Jace Beleren 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 2 Oblivion Ring 3 Path to Exile 2 Preordain 3 Ratchet Bomb 3 Thoughtseize 26 other spells
Sideboard 3 Baneslayer Angel 3 Disfigure 3 Flashfreeze 1 Inquisition of Kozilek 2 Kor Sanctifiers 1 Tectonic Edge 2 War Priest of Thune
3-1 (3/27): 2 Guys with the original list
Same for 3/26, 3/25, and 3/24. The deck is pretty popular online, looks like both the U/W and Mono-W variants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What about?>
12 Plains 4 Tectonic Edge 4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin 2 Arid Mesa 2 Marsh Flats
4 Path to Exile 4 Wall of Omens 4 Flickerwisp 4 Pilgrims Eye 3 Day of Judgment 3 Oblivion Ring 3 Mortarpod 3 Sun Titan 3 Baneslayer Angel 3 Lone Missionary 1 Runed Halo 1 Idyllic Tutor
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Leonin Relic-Warder 2 Pithing Needle 2 Tumble Magnet 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Day of Judgement 1 Mortarpod 1 Last Breath
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 28, 2011 17:03:59 GMT -5
The blue/white lists that you have there are an entirely different deck. None of them play Emerias or any of the blink spells. It's really just a blue/white controlling deck that is more concerned with having a pile of good cards to play with than figuring out how they all interact with each other. Not quite what we're trying to do.
As for your list, I think the combination of 3 Sun Titans AND 3 Baneslayers is a bit much for a deck that only runs 20 real lands (not counting the four fetches that don't tap for mana and won't likely stay on the board for too long).
Obviously, this is just an on-paper observation, but it seems like one of the best parts about the first list I posted is the fact that its curve is really low (only Sun Titan and Day of Judgment cost more than 3). Adding more Baneslayers makes the curve a lot bigger.
It sounds like your concerned with this deck's ability to finish games. I'm guessing that means you weren't able to win games with an active Sun Titan or an active Emeria? Was that because you didn't have enough time to run them out before you got killed, or was it because you couldn't gather enough lands to activate them? I'd want to know the answers to those questions before I started looking for MOAR finishers.
@the board: What purpose does Pithing Needle serve that O-Ring, Mortarpod, and Flickerwisp don't already handle? Is it better/worse than Phyrexian Revoker?
What purpose does Last Breath serve? Are you having trouble with early creature rushes from decks like Boros and Elves?
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 28, 2011 21:17:34 GMT -5
A quick heads up for ya john
Scapeshift will dump both prismatic omen and scapeshift on the same turn (usually turn 6 possibly less depending on build). Against a good player you won't have the opportunity to oring the omen. This is why I push for more runed halo and fully support 4 leyline. This means they have to fight through multiple layers of enchantments before they do a scapeshift. They will have trouble bouncing more than one with a cryptic command which should buy you time. Leonin would largely be irrelevant in the match whereas something like the dispeller capsule wouldn't be. (I'm not really trying to make a case for dispeller's capsule)
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Post by John Galli on Mar 28, 2011 21:51:53 GMT -5
Good questions and commentary, I'll do my best to elaborate and also mention some stuff I saw in doing goldfishing today (certainly not great testing but we're limited for this PTQ)
1. You're correct on the blue/white lists. I didn't look at them closely enough, just seeing sun titan and wall of omens and figuring they were a variant. Also, they're from a little earlier last week and I don't see any of them on MTGO anymore.
2. I hear you on the curve, but I don't think the addition of slayer affects it to as drastic an extent as what your making it sound like. The deck still has a plethora of 2-3 drops, and it's a deck that not only stalls your opponent long enough to draw land but also tends to consistently hit land drops with the help of wall of omens and pilgrim's eye. Additionally, Baneslayer Angel is a great finisher that has some advantages over / in addition to Sun Titan. It has flying, a key variable that many decks don't have a lot of answers for (aside from faeries). The tempo life swing is also important, although everyone already knows that about slayer. I'm not using this as a replacement to Sun Titan, but as a supplement, and I agree with you on not wanting to dilute the original theme of the deck.
Baneslayer was great against Boros in the goldfish games I did. Their only real answer was path or multiple lightning bolts, and one swing generally sealed the game. Also, if path was used on it, I'd usually drop a Sun Titan which would also end the game. At the 5 cc slot, it didn't get in the way of anything else in my curve as I played spells and often I'd run out other stuff first and hold out on casting it for a while.
3. Generally an active Titan or an active Emeria puts you in a position to win a game, however in some of the testing I did at your house there were situations where they might have been active for a turn or two and then dealt with, or a large attrition war was started where the game didn't end immediately. I specifically saw this with Grixis and Scapeshift, and occasionally boros if they found multiple Ranger of Eos's or sparkmage collar. Usually though Scapeshift was the big issue, as Sun Titan is fine but sometimes dealt with and the little guys just weren't very fast giving them time to draw into Cryptics and have enough lands to ensure scapsehift victory. Even after adding slayer, which helped speed wins up a little (IMO), Scapeshift still seems very tough. Runed Halo can be bounced by Cryptic, tectonic edge is tricky to use because they'll often just search for valakuts with scapeshift and using the tec edge early to slow down their lands will also slow your establishment down of Titan/Emeria locks. Scapeshift also runs tec edge, so they can get your emeria or your tec edge. The positive side to all this is that the White deck seems to have a fairly breezy time with aggro decks; Boros, Bant, etc, so more of the maindeck and sideboard could probably focus on scapeshift, grixis and combo (pyromancer's ascension just won a MTGO daily).
4. Pithing Needle is there for the decks heavy with planeswalkers where 4 Orings is just simply not enough. Our testing suite didn't include some of the decks that really hammer these out, I've seen a lot of lists with x2-3 Gideon, x2 Elspeth, x3 Jace (all together). They do exist, and they are going to be popular with the rich-kid-magic pros. There's a smattering of planeswalkers throughout decks anyway, and while flickerwisp is a cute reset it doesn't solve the problem and you may have already used up the O-Ring that was in your hand or had it lost in some other manner. Pithing needle puts a kabosh to sparkmage, collar, sword, stoneforge mystic, and all the stuff I mentioned on the other post too. Infact, I think a key use against bant would be to call pridemage as they tend to run x4 of him and it disrupts your o-rings (and runed halo if you run it main).
5. Last breath is for elves. An added path to exile to stunt them until you can DOJ. It's not the greatest, but it's what's in the list for now until/unless we find something better.
I noticed on the dailies for the last several days that there were quite a few white decks, but they were all finishing 3-1. The 4-0 decks were almost strictly scapeshift. In goldfishing about 5 games, scapeshift was quite difficult to beat, having enough countermagic and card draw to stop our main objective while at the same time setting up for the kill. I'm confused as to where to go on this, as while the sideboard will bring in a lot of added answers, I don't want to go into game 1 drawing a 20-80 matchup or something along the like. I really believe that once boarded, the enchantment hate, the leyelines, and the halos will all provide a lot to deal with, but pre-board you're just asking to lucksack unless we find a way to speed up killing them (prior to establishing titan / emeria shenanigans. Even if we establish that, as I did in several goldfish games, you need to make sure your drawing enough gas to finish the job. I think with Glimmerpoint you had just enough added blinking to keep the wall of omens drawing you into cards, but then again that's only two added cards in that vein (even though he's a decent beater on his own).
I think the figure of destinys that the new guy played is a nice early / mid / late option, but I really don't like how his mana intensivity could possibly conflict with our other spells and how he dies to Day of Judgment. It's possible the intention was to have him as a late game drop once you got things online, essentially playing him and getting him to global in a turn. But that doesn't really explain the x4 that the creator of the deck chose to go with, and again I can't explain how he avoids tying up his mana and fruitlessly killing his own guys (even though they'll recur later with Sun Titan. Figure is also a $10 card, another card like Baneslayer that will require shelling more of an investment into the deck. If it's an added help at beating scapeshift then cool beans, but I'd hope it works if that's the case.
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