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Post by Travis Lannoye on Oct 2, 2012 8:43:48 GMT -5
Nice list. Here are some changes I would consider: (take all of this with the grain of salt that I rarely pay attention to T2, but have plenty of experience brewing controlish decks for the undefined meta that is states) -3 Knight of Glory - pro-black is nice, but probably better in the SB if the goal is to fight zombies. Main might be fine if we anticipate it will be a huge chunk of the meta. -1 Augur of Bolas - I like the guy, but the one of just seems kind of weak. I would much rather focus on spells that flip delver early on or go all in with him -2 Unsummon - Cylconic Rift -3 Geist - or -x amount. I feel like you'll want to focus more on either the instant side of things with Talrand or the beat down route. I almost like geist more in the board for facing control decks. Since aggro tends to dominate states, you may just end up with too my situations where he has to sit back and chump block. Without mana leak, there are just too many situations where he will be dead on the board when you go to drop him. -4 Feeling of Dread - since you're in black, I would consider running actual removal or running O-ring. -3x Syncopate - Dissipate just does this better in a non-conditional way Additions: +4 Judge's Familiar - some number of these is good. This guy is awesome. It slows down opposing control decks and beats in the air. There's reason Cursecatcher is a crucial 1-drop in merfolk. +3-4 Dissipate - really strong counter in the current environment. Keeps some of zombies' stuff dead for good +4 Cyclonic Rift - This card is just amazing in its utility. It provides awesome tempo and there are times it will just destroy your opponents or clear the way for a win. I can't see any reason not to run is as a 4x with Snapcaster in a deck. This is the swiss army knife of bounce spells. +1-2 Negate - good counter that stops a lot of the more problematic permanents. Probably the best counter in the 2cc slot since Mana Leak rotated. +x Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere - Ring is cheaper and, honestly, probably just as effective. Running O-ring prevents those awkward situations where you have to hit your opponent's delver +3 Supreme Verdict between Main/SB - You'll want this at some point, but I'm not sure what ratio is right between the two. A piece of removal I feel might warrant some attention is Ultimate Price. It does depend on what some of the lists look like from that pre-states SCG event, but that is a pretty splashable removal spell if gold creatures don't take over the environment. Also, I agree with anything running red pretty much feeling like it needs to run Bonfire. That's really kind of a shame. I agree with a lot of these points. - Geist and Knight are aggro cards, and this isn't really an aggro deck. - I like Augur of Bolas a lot, but after 4 Delvers and 4 Snaps and however many Talrands and 4 Lingering Souls, that's a lot of creatures for a deck that is supposed to get added value out of instants and sorceries. - Not sure if this is a Lingering Souls deck or not. You still seem to have a lot of creatures in a deck that historically doesn't need that many. I'm not saying that you should absolutely cut this, but it just feels a little out of place. - Feeling of Dread feels like a card you would use to try and race another aggro deck, and that doesn't feel right to me. Can't quite put my finger on it, but that kind of effect doesn't seem like it belongs in winning lists. - I'm well aware of why Cursecatcher is an automatic 4-of in all Merfolk decks, but most of those decks live in a world where Force of Will and Thoughtseize are cards. Not sure if this format will be defined by instants and sorceries as much (I doubt Zombie players will care about this card, for example), but it should probably be somewhere in your list. - I'm leaning more towards Syncopate over Dissipate right now, simply because you might need to be able to cast it on turn 2. Again, because the format is brand-new, it's hard to say at this point, but in the dark I'd rather have a counter up on turn 2 against Zombies instead of waiting until turn 3 when they might have already dumped a Geralf's Messenger and a pair of one-drops on the board. - Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict both seem like they should be in here. The Sphere is an excellent answer to Gravecrawlers, and the Verdict is, well, exactly what the control deck wants against the aggro deck: a Wrath they can't counter. - One last thing: between Glacial Fortress and Hallowed Fountain, you should be plenty fixed. Probably don't need the Azorius Gate card.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Oct 2, 2012 10:23:24 GMT -5
Another deck that you might want to keep an eye on is the GW aggro deck. Restoration Angel and Thragtusk are still excellent value creatures, and the Selesnya guild got a lot of efficient 2 and 3 drops to fill in their curve.
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Evan
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Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Oct 2, 2012 22:43:57 GMT -5
Feeling of Dread is far better then it looks on paper. It buys time for you to wrath.
Cheers
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Post by abeckett on Oct 2, 2012 23:13:57 GMT -5
Feeling of Dread is far better then it looks on paper. It buys time for you to wrath. Cheers Fair enough. It just seems like such a limited card, but i can see where it would be a good way of slowing down fast aggro rushes.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 3, 2012 10:26:16 GMT -5
Maybe I should have explained my ideas behind the deck and the reasons for the numbers too. Alas, time is short these days.
@knight of Glory - If you look at the latest winning list and article from StarCity Atlanta you'll see that Todd Anderson won with a Delver list that included Mirran Crusader. Obviously, Mirran Crusader is a much better creature but that's not enough to rule out Knight of Glory. Sidenote - Mirran Crusader is rotating and Knight of Glory will be the only protection from black creature as a result (there is no protection from green creature). It's possible I missed something in RTR but otherwise that is accurate. Todd put in Crusader because of the increasing rise of Zombies in the meta and it being one of the more difficult decks for Delver to beat and it panned out immensely well for him. The meta is expected to be heavy zombies going forward as well, if not moreso than before even since we're dealing with a blank slate and that looks like the best deck going onwards. Knight of Glory isn't a terrible two drop, and his exalted ability is actually great for Delver in a deck that is not a control or aggro deck, it's a "tempo" deck. If you actually play, played, or played against Delver in standard you know that it is a deck that usually "races". He might be too narrow or better as a sideboard card but that's why I'm open to suggestion, number changes, movement, etc. Imagine though dropping Delver turn 1, flipping it turn 2 while dropping a Knight, attacking for 4 and then having a blocker that they just can't do anything about.
@ Augur of Bolas - there were successful lists recently running x3 or x4 of this guy, and I read a good article on how useful he is in the current standard environment as a solid chumper and a draw engine. I don't think a miser one-of of him is bad as he's never a poor draw. That said, I agree with you guys that the level of instants and sorceries needs to go up to help him and delver. I'm not sure on my build as far as the spells go yet. It really sucks that Ponder and Gitaxan Probe are gone, but there are some solid new additions which is why I think this deck is far from dead.
@ Unsummon - As you can see from my considerables, Cyclone Rift was not forgotten. The reason I think Unsummon *could* be better is for multiple reasons. First, Vapor Snag being 1 mana was very relevant in a deck with low land count and specific casting costs. Second, Cyclone Rift's Overload cost will never be reachable, PERIOD. There might be a random game or two where you get that high and it's a blowout, but that's about it. Third, the fact that Rift can hit Planeswalkers and other stuff is pretty important, so that is probably reason enough to consider it instead of Unsummon but I'm not sure yet. We'll kind of have to see what plays out for this. I'd love to hear more thought on the card though.
@geist - To me Geist seems like it will be a lot stronger early on in this format. The two best cards against it (Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image) are both rotating, leaving mostly slow red cards as a defense (Bonfire, Mizzium Mortars, Rolling Thunder). The problem is I think that you guys are right that it's not fitting correctly in this deck. It fits from a curve standpoint beautifully, but my list lacks Runchanter's Pike or Spectral Flight which have to go hand-in-hand with Geist and was an oversight on my part. That direction also hurts or helps the instant/Talrand strategy, so I'm not sure yet what number if any for Geist I like here. I feel like even in an instant-heavy build, he has to be played solely for his strength in this format. That said, maybe he's a sideboard card and maybe Runechanter's Pike needs to be in the main.
@feeling of Dread - Feeling of Dread is largely my own idea, but there's some basis for it. First, it was in the winning Block List for Worlds (U/W Miracle Control) where it was used surprisingly to high success and I use it in my Rafiq EDH deck where it has been a beast. I honestly think it's even better in Delver. It's a tempo card and this is a tempo deck, it does double duty for Talrand, and it accomplishes more than Oblivion Ring or straight removal will a lot of the time (although not all the time) by potentially locking down two targets. It may not make the cut ultimately, but I personally think this is some hot tech that people are being slow to see.
@syncopate - With Mana Leak gone, this is the counter Delver needs. Dissipate was only used in the sideboard against control matches prior to this rotation and it's too slow against Zombies to be relevant. Syncopate even being a force spike is very relevant in Standard, and often times it will be a better Mana Leak.
@judge's Familiar - This deck's 1 drop is Delver, so I don't think the Familiar is an auto-include. I could easily see it coming in against Control or possibly the mirror, but I don't see it being very effective against aggro. Time could prove this absurdly wrong, but I'm only situationally high on this card.
@oblivion Ring - If I'm going to play one of the rings, I actually like detention sphere a good bit more. This is probably a sideboard card though as Delver never played any of that kind of action prior and it cuts down on both the creature and the instant/sorcery count.
@supreme Verdict - I like the card a ton, and it might be a maindeck 1 or 2 of, but it's probably a sideboard card which is why it wasn't in my list.
@azorious Gate Land - If you look at the history of manabases, traditionally you need more than 8-9 sources for your second color if it's a fairly heavy color with on-curve drops. I don't know how many gates if any are "correct" but I don't think 4 glacial fortress and 4 hallowed fountain cut it for consistency purposes.
@lingering Souls - This was highly successful in the Delver Spirits deck, the card on it's own is huge card advantage, and it's great with Talrand. Other than being costly mana-wise, I think it could be a good value addition to Delver again.
@g/W Aggro - not a big fan of this archetype. It's durdling midrange and I feel like in Standard you have to be accomplishing something. I'm much more comfortable with midrange in extended, modern, or legacy.
Thoughts?
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Post by John Galli on Oct 3, 2012 21:37:17 GMT -5
Just noticed Sam Black's deck from the invitational which has some similarities to mine including Knight of glory out of the board - mtgpulse.com/event/10711#149181Also, seeing a lot of interesting brews on channel fireball and blackborder. Lot of Bant Ramp and U/W Control
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Post by John Galli on Oct 3, 2012 22:35:09 GMT -5
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Evan
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Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Oct 3, 2012 23:00:19 GMT -5
I know there was a list running feeling of dread and specifically going over that ever time he cut some of them he added them back in. Prolly in the SCG premium section.
Cheers
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Post by John Galli on Oct 4, 2012 5:37:53 GMT -5
Yeah I saw a few floating around yesterday when I was catching up on some reading. Todd Anderson has had some good playtesting articles as of late, and I like this one- www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24974-Standard-Staples-For-RTR.htmlStill haven't decided if I can or want to play at this point due to the financials, I'm thinking if I do ill probably just borrrow Travis's lands since that's usually the cost killer for most decks. So many ideas out there at the moment though. Some of these big ramp decks look fun, and there's lots of good midrange cards available too. I feel like you either play resilient zombies, thragtusk, or some kind of miracle slamming. Not sure what else is viable. If counterspells aren't popular early on I could see frites/silence being a really cool deck, but if your good at magic that deck can be beat. I hosed it pretty good in a ptq by just playing smart and having a good sideboard. Part of me would love to play either black white tokens again or G/W tokens but I haven't seen a list that I'm in love with and detention sphere + jace is nasty. Evan you usually brew a lot of solid decks, have you been thinking about any new ideas? P.S. - another rough idea I've been working on: Junk Midrange- 4 Overgrown Tomb 4 Temple Garden 4 Sunpetal Grove 4 Woodland Cemetery 3 Cavern of Souls 1 Gavony Township 4 Forest 3 Deathrite Shaman 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim 4 Strangleroot Geist 3 Thragtusk 3 Restoration Angel 1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice 4 Centaur Healer 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Lingering Souls 4 Selesnya Charm 1 Armada Wurm 1 Rancor Some of the numbers are quite off (aka rancor and wurm) but you get the idea
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Post by John Galli on Oct 4, 2012 10:07:57 GMT -5
More brews
G/W Beats Version 1
1 Armada Wurm 1 Acidic Slime 4 Centaur Healer 3 Thragtusk 3 Fiend Hunter 4 Restoration Angel 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim 4 Arbor Elf 4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Selesnya Charm
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Rancor
4 Temple Garden 4 Sunpetal Grove 2 Gavony Township 10 Forest 3 Plains
G/W Tokens Version 1
4 Arbor Elf 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim 4 Angel of Jubilation
4 Intangible Virtue 4 Oblivion Ring
4 Call of the Conclave 4 Selesnya Charm 4 Gather the Townsfolk 4 Eyes in the Skies 1 Increasing Devotion
4 Temple Garden 4 Sunpetal Grove 2 Gavony Township 9 Forest 4 Plains
G/W Aggro Version 2
4 Arbor Elf 4 Avacyn's Pilgrim 4 Strangleroot Geist 3 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben 4 Centaur Healer 3 Fiend Hunter 4 Restoration Angel 3 Thragtusk 1 sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Selesnya Charm 2 Rancor 1 Garruk, Relentless
4 Temple Garden 4 Sunpetal Grove 2 Gavony Township 7 Forest 3 Cavern of Souls 3 Plains
(other considerations) Rhox Faithmender (1/5 Lifelink, gain twice life when gain life) Angel of Jubilation Riders of Gavony Sublime Archangel Tree of Redemption Sigarda, Host of Herons Wolfir Avenger Wolfir Silverheart Call of the Conclave Geist-Honored Monk Trostani, Selesnya's Voice Elite Inquisitor Knight of Glory
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Evan
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Oct 4, 2012 10:52:04 GMT -5
There's a bant hexproof enchantment list that seems decent, I was also thinking about a monoblack control deck splashing green/red, or a RWB control deck. The hexproof list is the only one I've made yet:
Bant Enchant 4 Abundant Growth 1G 4 Ethereal Armor 1W 4 Rancor 1G 4 Invisible Stalker 2U 4 Feeling of Dread 2WU 3 Azorious Charm 2UW 2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride 3WW 2 Detention Sphere 3UW 4 Geist of Saint Traft 3UW 2 Sigarda, Host of Herons 5GW 3 Thragtusk 5G
Land (24) 1 Forest 1 Plains 2 Moorland Haunt 4 Glacial Fortress 4 Hallowed Fountain 4 Hinterland Harbor 4 Sunpetal Grove 4 Temple Garden
13G 13 23W 17 13U 12
SB: 3 Negate 2 Purify the Grave 1 Detention Sphere 3 Ray of Revelation 2 Rootborn Defenses 4 Centaur Healer
Cheers
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Post by crazedferret on Oct 5, 2012 18:21:20 GMT -5
opened some packs...
1 Jace architect 2 lotleth troll (1 foil) 2 dreadbore 2 abrupt decay 2 detention sphere 2 rest in peace 1 cyclonic rift 2 supreme verdict (one foil preorder one) 1 desecration demon 1 ash zealot 2 mizzium mortars 1 worldspine wurm 1 jarad 3 jarad's orders (one foil) 1 slaughter game 2-3 chromatic lanterns (one foil) at least 3 duals including hallowed fountain
Not sure what you are looking to play John if you are going to play, but I have some things you may be able to use.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 6, 2012 22:46:22 GMT -5
Nice pulls Pat, glad to see you and Ryan got some stuff. At this point, I'm not sure if I'm going to play or not. I was planning on ordering a deck online either tonight or tomorrow but it'd probably require me selling my EDH cards as usual since my finances are low and every competitive deck looks like it's $300 not including the lands I'd borrow from Travis. Top 32 Decklists are out from SCG- sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-10-07&end_date=2012-10-07&event_ID=19I watched a good amount of live coverage today and some deck techs, I noticed a few things- 1.) The new Jace is really fucking good. He seemed absurd in play, tough to kill, and super powerful combined with Tamiyo. If you read the top 8 player profiles, every single player except for one identified Jace as the best card in RTR. He's GOOD. And all the websites aside from some on tcgplayer have jacked him up to $50 as of this evening. So it's nice you pulled one Pat because even if no one uses him of our group you could sell him for a good amount. I actually wanted to play that miracles deck but it might be the most expensive thing out there so it's probably not an option. He's still selling for $40 at least on tcgplayer. 2.) The top 8 consists of R/B Zombies, B/G Zombies, a few Jund Midrange decks, U/W/R Miracles, and Frites, but there's a few decks in the top 16 which I watched on live coverage and saw deck techs about which were pretty cool too. Andrew Shrout and a friend of his both made to 16 with their U/W Humans deck which had Geist of Saint Traft, Thalia, Feeling of Dread, Knight of Glory, and Elite Inquisitor; all cards that I was hyping up on the forums here. I really like the aggressiveness of his deck, my only issue is that I fear it looks weak on paper to miracles like Terminus and Entreat the Angels. It also costs a lot too since Geist and Sublime Archangel are big bills. 3.) Olivia is apparently very much alive and well in this new format, without vapor snag to hold her down people are raping with her. That's another worry for anyone deciding to play "quick aggro" 4.) G/W Aggro was heavily played but didn't finish well, and from what commentators said it looks to be a dead archetype because it just loses to control (naturally). 5.) It's still really early, but the matches I watched the control decks were just insane. Azorious charming a dude to the top of the library, followed by a detention sphere, followed by jace, followed by tamiyo, followed by terminus, followed by entreat the angels is just bonkers. This deck was pretty much available before with some slight substitutions but the rotation has just made it a monster. 6.) Normally I'm a Jund player or a RDW player, but honestly I'm just not feeling it this go-around. The Jund decks are just a bunch of expensive $$ four drops jammed into a deck with the new removal spells and some zombies, and the zombie decks are so easy to metagame against. Something like Andrew's U/W deck has so many hate-bears against zombies that are actually great in almost any matchup. It's also just not the glory days of cascade, so I'm just not liking it. Plus, the rakdos aggro decks are too suicidal. I feel like in this format you need to apply a lot of pressure, have resilience, and have some trumps for miracle. I think the midrange Jund can do this, but the deck is still just a pile of cash. 7.) Thragtusk is good like everyone thought he would be, but not great. People came prepared for him and talked about a lot of really good plans and I can now see plenty of ways to shut him down not to mention that there is a lot in this format for 5 mana or less that's probably as good if not better than him. Garruk Relentless for instance was heavily played and seems to really shine in this format (as planeswalkers do in general). Print enough planeswalkers and print enough wraths and that's usually what you get. As for the Prerelease, I got some decent loot I might try pwning off or using in a deck- Vraska Overgrown Tomb Blood Crypt Angel of Serenity Mizzium Mortars etc etc What's really sad is when a deck like this loses to control (let alone anything else- 7th Place - Selesyna Aggro
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Post by crazedferret on Oct 7, 2012 1:15:52 GMT -5
does anyone have any tamiyo's or talrand's? If I play I'd be looking to play u/w control with possible splash of green-> I'd take a token approach with lingering souls, think twice, and feeling of dread for repeated activations of talrand
feeling of dread, to help out the early rush and tamiyo to take advantage late game with feeling of dread
I'd play green for probably gavony township, maybe garruk and some sideboard cards.
Otherwise I'm not terribly far off from a frites decklist either.
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Post by John Galli on Oct 7, 2012 10:16:12 GMT -5
Unfortunately I do not have any of that. I looked over my edh decks and even selling those I don't think I'd be anywhere near a standard deck so I think I'm out for states. Really sucks because I wanted to play but these decks are just way too effing expensive.
Todd Anderson won the SCG with U/W/R Miracles, beating 4-color Frites in the finals. Joe Bernal with Rakdos Zombies and Lauren with Jund Midrange were 3rd/4th. Pretty solid decks all around.
Pat I do have 1 Garruk Primal Hunter if you need to borrow it
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