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Post by John Galli on Feb 29, 2012 16:46:34 GMT -5
Just thought I'd weigh in and let you guys know I'm in the process of making full-card proxies of a few legacy decks so I can help ya'all playtest and what not (and just because it's a fun format to mess around with). Not sure when I'm going to print them off, but hopefully sometime soon
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Feb 29, 2012 16:51:43 GMT -5
Just thought I'd weigh in and let you guys know I'm in the process of making full-card proxies of a few legacy decks so I can help ya'all playtest and what not (and just because it's a fun format to mess around with). Not sure when I'm going to print them off, but hopefully sometime soon That sounds like a fine plan to me. What are you going to make?
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Post by crazedferret on Feb 29, 2012 18:26:50 GMT -5
Sun titan.... Tis a "3" drop sir....
Look at my lands to see what I mean.... Doing dry runs, I can pretty consistently get six mana on turn three.
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Post by abeckett on Feb 29, 2012 20:59:41 GMT -5
I appreciate the idea of trying to come up with an original list, but what you're trying to do has been done in other ways and a little more efficiently. Try doing a google search for "legacy white stax" or just "legacy stax" and you'll see some versions of prison lists that do a lot of similar thing while also maintaining more a curve that let's you play disruption faster. "Faster" is the key word here. Legacy is a very fast format and, while you may goldfish 6 mana on turn 3, I have a hard time believing it will happen that often in practice. Your list assumes no disruption on the part of your opponent, which is honestly pretty rare. Between wastelands, counters, or discard, you will have a heck of a time resolving or keeping a threat in hand until they're already well on the way to killing you. Any deck that does not disrupt you is probably a combo deck. While you're shooting for a contagion engine on turn 3, they're popping ad nauseum into a fistful of LED, Lotus Petal, Rituals and Infernal Tutor for Tendrils. You need to combine the cards you want to play with more disruption of your own. Cards like Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere can stop them from dropping threats or going off until you are able to play your own lock pieces. Chalice on 1 and 2 shuts down a ton of decks. Check out this list for an example of a Legacy-viable prison deck: magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=624567The core mana base of any prison deck in Legacy would likely need to start with: 4x Ancient Tomb 4x City of Traitors 4x Mox Diamond 4x Wasteland Like I said, prison strategies are viable. But I would focus on a specific path to victory, instead of just cramming all the best lock pieces into your deck. You need enablers and a way to stay alive early on just in case you don't have that six drop resolve on turn 3 when your opponent has gone Delver, Delver, flip both into 6 damage a turn.
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Evan
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by Evan on Feb 29, 2012 22:39:10 GMT -5
Sun Titan has never seen play in a competitive legacy deck. Typically, all spells are 3 or less in most decks (with exceptions for certain obvious decks, like reanimator, metalworker, etc), with a few 4s that are ridiculous, mainly Jace, Elspeth, Moat, Tendrils, etc.
Cheers
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 1, 2012 1:23:37 GMT -5
Wow, maybe next time I keep my ideas to myself.... I did say it was an idea right? Pretty sure that was the first thing I said.
I really don't think you do appreciate original ideas, otherwise you wouldn't be saying things the way you are saying things.
For instance, instead of "already done before and better" How about a "nice thought, this card could help the idea better" or that's an interesting twist on an old idea" etc etc.
This post really makes you sound like a snob. I mean I certainly don't play legacy much and can certainly learn a few things from you, but you certainly don't know it all.
This list is RAW, completely untested. As I said, an idea. There would likely be a couple dozen iterations of the idea which would come about through play testing before I settled on any set of cards, but thanks for making me feel stupid for posting an idea.
Having hopefully made my point here, I will certainly consider the rest of the worthwhile advice in the post and then continue working with the cards I like and already have.
And Evan, just because it hasn't been in a competitive legacy deck doesn't mean it couldn't be in one. Your second sentence even proves that it could be. There are a lot of cards to work with and I'm sure there are several that could make it work.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 1, 2012 10:55:51 GMT -5
OK, maybe we were a LITTLE out of line there.
I think the main point here is that Legacy is a very well-defined format, largely because it's been around for quite some time and most of the kinks have been worked out by the thousands of people who have been sharing ideas for years and years. Sure, a new card like Geist of Saint Traft or Delver of Secrets will come along every now and then, but the majority of the format is pretty rock-solid.
Unfortunately, that doesn't leave a lot of room for creativity. You can make a few small changes here and there, like putting a single Rhox War Monk in a Bant list with Green Sun's Zenith, or changing which large metal dudes you run alongside your Metalworkers, or adjusting the package of options in your Burning Wish sideboard, but whole deck ideas are pretty tough.
Here's a question: what made you decide to put this idea together? That is, what part about this deck do you find appealing? If it's the part about disrupting things with the likes of Tangle Wire, maybe look at a Stax list with things like Smokestack, Armageddon, Wasteland, etc. If it's the part about dropping large fatties quickly, maybe look at something with 4x Metalworker.
Another idea: which old-school cards do you want to start playing with? For me, it was Noble Hierarch, Stoneforge Mystic, and Knight of the Reliquary, since I still had them from back in the day. Once I figured that out, I went over to the Deck Database on StarCity's website and did a search for all decks with those three cards in them, and got a whole bunch of different lists to try (GW Maverick, Bant Stoneblade, Punishing Maverick, etc).
I apologize if I got you a little discouraged. Hope these two ideas are more helpful to you.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 1, 2012 11:43:51 GMT -5
While legacy is a format that has a lot of proven decks its by no means a solved format. One of the things I love about it and used to love about extended for the same reasons was the fact that people get so entrenched in their beliefs and what decks are good that their obvious card choices and decks make the format really easy to attack. It makes having the element of surprise a huge deal if you put in the time to properly tune your deck. That's the reason I had good success with a hombrew elves, a hombrew boat-brew and a homebrew black deck. None of my choices were completely finished decks but I could tell at the time that if I put some more work into the decks that they could be contenders.
I also used some card choices that nobody else or very few used that surprised opponents, received criticism, and also beat down several of these people. So Pat I definitely encourage the brewing and I think you'll really find your answers in playtesting against others. The $5 Saturday legacy tournaments are a great casual starter and have been fun from my experience.
As for what decks I proxies, cat remember off hand but I think u/r delver, stoneblade bant, and dredge so far. Just trying to find a cheap way to print them at the moment.
I think one of the reasons both Pat and I frequently take offense to the posts on these various forums is because a lot of people here write as if they're an authority on these topics and the other person is not. I'm pretty sure at least my reading of mtg and participation in events is on par with everyone else as is Pat's. While I didn't find Andrew's post out of line there's just ways of phrasing things better and Pat's right in that commentary should be more positive and constructive. Several individuals here often lean towards tearing down upon initial inspection rather than actually sitting for five to ten minutes thinking of suggestions and giving they're own spin on something. Just food for thought.
Btw, our crew is way overdue for actually playing some magic together. I realize all of our lives our insanely busy but lets try to make it a point if getting together at some point this week and playing some cards (or heck even board games). I'm going to be tied up on Saturday evening and probably wont be able to make edh tonight but I'm up for other suggestions
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Post by abeckett on Mar 1, 2012 12:28:36 GMT -5
crazedferret - I apologize. In my attempts not to be too wordy in posts (which are often already very TL;DR affairs) I sometimes make language choices that come across much worse than intended. I'm not trying to totally crap on your idea, as I do think prison decks are a viable strategy. From a casual perspective your deck concept could work very well. My intended point was that, from a competitive standpoint, it would have a very difficult time winning. Your curve is top heavy and your disruption would often come online too late. By saying it’s "already done before and better," I was trying to point out that similar strategies have been tried and show examples of how they made it fit in the metagame. Legacy is very diverse, but it’s also a fairly established format. New strategies do rise up when new sets are released (stoneblade) and old archetypes regain footing from time to time (affinity), but if you look at the T16 from any SCG open you will see a pretty standard list of a dozen or so decks doing well. If I come across as too harsh in how I try to offer advice, I’m sorry. I just prefer to cut through the BS when talking deck construction in formats I have a pretty firm grasp on. As for Sun Titan, I could have sworn I saw a white stax list somewhere that was running him. His ability is strong and could be abused. However, he seems very difficult to protect with all of the very efficient spot removal that floats around. It’s an idea worth investigating if you can find a way to make him actually resolve and stick around.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 1, 2012 13:24:03 GMT -5
@john: May I request that you proxy UR Delver and Dredge, and maybe some others, but NOT the Stoneblade lists? I only say this because both Andrew and I are already building lists that are very similar to these, and I think it would be more beneficial to play against something different like Dredge + Delver. Some other potentially good things to proxy would be Goblins, Affinity, and the new mono-black list with Sinkhole/Liliana/Bitterblossom and the like. I doubt anyone would be brave enough to proxy some kind of Storm combo deck...that would take some serious effort. @pat: Not sure if this is something you'd be interested in, but I did a quick search for decks with Metalworker on StarCity. Only one deck came up, but it looks like this list took first place in last weekend's Legacy Open: sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44241@john again: If you want to play some cards (Legacy, or otherwise), I'm going to EDH tonight to debut the new and foily Grimgrin Zombie list I made. Also, I should have the house to myself on Saturday morning and Sunday evenings.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 1, 2012 13:43:58 GMT -5
That welder list looks pretty sweet. Haven't seen that archetype before but maybe its a rehash on an old one.
I don't think I can make edh tonight but ill try. As for proxies decks, I've got show and tell printed and ill try to print Delbert and dredge if I have time today. Storm and high tide are probably worth doing because I've seen them around at various points.
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Post by Travis Lannoye on Mar 1, 2012 13:59:47 GMT -5
Ya, I saw that and remembered back in the day when Pat used to roll out all those old Metalworker decks with Covetous Dragons and Phyrexian Colossuses and whatnot.
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Post by abeckett on Mar 1, 2012 15:36:01 GMT -5
No EDH tonight and I'm flying solo with the kiddo through Sunday afternoon. I'm actually pretty booked through the 16th, between work and family obligations.
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Post by crazedferret on Mar 1, 2012 19:05:05 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifiying some things. I appreciate the understanding shown in the above posts.
I have held onto a lot of older stuffs and am trying to figure out what I want to do with it. I am definitely interested in the metalworker deck. I have that stuff still. I am also interested in a stax-like/prison deck. I have a good amount of stuff for enchantress too, which looking at online seems pretty interesting to me. Not sure the competitiveness on any of it.
Stuff I'd be interested in playing with that I have
3x Mox diamond 4 x goblin welder 4 x metalworker 4 x tangle wire 3 x serra sanctum (I think...I may only have two) 2 x mind over matter 2-3 x intuition 3 parallax wave 4 parallax tide 4 argothian enchantress 2-3 gaea's cradle 4x ancient tomb 2 x wasteland replenish
and a bunch of other stuff that would be interesting to play again like brainstorm, daze, thwart and some of the other small stuffs.
Stasis and sun titan was always an interesting thought to me, as is garruk with stasis and sun titan.
I almost feel like I should shoot for a prison/enchantress type deck.
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Post by John Galli on Mar 1, 2012 20:40:46 GMT -5
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